2022 gearing and gearing change joker

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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hollus
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2022 gearing and gearing change joker

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I was wishing to do a gearing analysis again this year, but my old method is very labor intensive viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18700
and with a gear change joker available for 2022, a lot of monitoring and repeat work would have been on the cards. Busy with life got on the way, it happens.

On the other side, this year we have seen an explosion of fans extracting and analyzing telemetry data, so… are there any gearing analyses already done? If yes, paste links below, please!

I also wanted to start this thread to further discuss a point raised by Wazari in the Honda PU thread but by no means exclusive to that PU or those teams:
viewtopic.php?p=1065391#p1065391
Wazari wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:08 pm
hollus wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:47 pm
Wazari wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:40 am
I think overall last year all gears ratios were a little short especially 5-8 by about 75 to 125 RPM. It may not seem too significant but can make up to a two tenths difference.
Ahh, if we are talking about off by 100RPM then i buy the point. I am surprised that so little can make a 2 tenth difference, but I’ll take your word for it.
A few hundredth's here and there can add up especially at tracks like Montreal, Bahrain and Singapore.
My point was that gears overlap enough as to no matter but I had this straight line drag race from 100km/h to 300 km/h in mind. The way those 100 RPM get described there make me think that it is more about not shifting into the wrong gear in that mid speed corner combination there, which is a bit different, more tactical than strategical, in a way, very situation specific.
Is that right? Is that all there is to it? If that is the case, optimizations will remain opaque to us “normal” fans.

And anyway again, going to my favorite philosophical conundrum: If a few changes by 100RPM can be worth up to two tenths, say 1 tenth in most circuits… how likely are all teams to have gotten it correct before porpoising changed their aero maps and the first PU adjustments changed the power curves?
So, let’s assume a few teams are losing a tenth to wrong gearing… when do you adjust it? If the problem is small enough maybe the optimum is to run two different gearings in two different circuit sets.

So, do you adjust gearing…
Now that setups and power delivery are more well understood?
To adjust to the sucession of fast tracks later in the season, say, after Hungary?
For the last race in Singapore specifically?
Never (in 2014 some teams never adjusted anything, others adjusted only 1st gear).

Or maybe they are, mostly, not that far from optimal and hence there is no need to adjust?
I would like to see a paleontologist.

NL_Fer
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I am also impressed that it still matters that much. I just though with these turbocharged hybrids there is an almost flat torque output around the 10-11000rpm area and the only problem would be efficiency once the engine is run to far under or above of the ideal torque range.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2022 gearing and gearing change joker

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The torque of the present turbocharged hybrid power unit is as much as three times more of the NA engine before them. Such an increase in torque and at much lower engine speeds plus at a much wider power band allows for the selection of one set of ratios only for use at different tracks through the season. The change from seven to eight ratios was mostly driven by the need to make it easier to control the powertrain for energy recovery.

johnny comelately
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Just to add to the complexity because the ramifications are very complex, here is some (Mr Crafar hasnt dealt with all the solutions) of the factors in the two wheel version to consider (some of these didnt relate to the 2 stroke era).
As applied to F1 the engine braking and harvesting must be so difficult to work out??
Additionally to this (motoGP) was the internal ratios of the cassette, eg, there was at least 4 choices for each gear, some with 6.
Two questions:
What is a priority if possible for the drive sprocket?
And, just out of curiosity, who has actually done the calcs (from driver/rider input or self) and physical changes for cars and/or bikes?
A look into the MotoGP™ gearing: Tech Talk with Simon Crafar (YouTube)

PhillipM
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Tbh the needs of a high revving N/A bike are nothing like the 2022 hybrid turbo PU's

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PhillipM wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:53 pm
Tbh the needs of a high revving N/A bike are nothing like the 2022 hybrid turbo PU's
how so ?

since forever the (fuel-limited) GP bike has had 'only' 6 gears ? (albeit each matched to the track)
people say the hybrid F1 ICE has a wide power band but it's only from 10500 to 12100 rpm

saviour stivala
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technical facts are that no additional power can be produced above max power speed because no additional fueling is possible according to max fuel flow rules.

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hollus
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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:20 pm
technical facts are that no additional power can be produced above max power speed because no additional fueling is possible according to max fuel flow rules.
No. Just no.

We've discussed this a million times.
The rules say no extra fuel above 10500.
The rules do not say anything about where the max power of any given engine is.
Engines do not run at a single RPM value, so the fact that the maximum theoretical power (lowest friction with max fuel) could arguably be at 10500 RPM is irrelevant.
An engine running always at 10500 RPM would either magically need no gears or need infinite gears.
A real F1 engine is forced to run at a range of RPM spanning at least 15% roughly.
Hence a real F1 engine cannot match your ideal always at 10500.

And then the designers come in, do real life compromises and the max power ends up away from 10500.

10500 is the lowest RPM possible with the max fuel, nothing else, nothing more.
Nowhere does it say, force of just happens to be, that 10500 RPM is max power.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

saviour stivala
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We can discuss this for another million times, no problem with me. Yes correct, 10500RPM is the lowest possible at maximum fuel ‘flow’ as allowed by the rules. As above 10500 RPM no additional fuel ‘flow’ is allowed to flow by the rules, no additional power is possible to be produced by the ICE above 10500 RPM. All road going ICE’S are normally run approx 500 RPM above their maximum power producing speed (RPM). The previous NA formula one engines were no exception, they produced their maximum power output at 500 RPM below their used maximum RPM. The modern day formula one ICE is normally run to 1000-1500 RPM above their maximum power producing speed (RPM). About two-to-three times more of what the previous NA ICE’S used to be run at.

johnny comelately
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Gearing fellas, gearing :wink:

gruntguru
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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:10 pm
Yes correct, 10500RPM is the lowest possible at maximum fuel ‘flow’ as allowed by the rules. As above 10500 RPM no additional fuel ‘flow’ is allowed to flow by the rules, no additional power is possible to be produced by the ICE above 10500 RPM.
Power = Fuel flow x Thermal efficiency.

Thermal efficiency will never be the same at all rpm. Factors like camshaft design, intake and exhaust runner lengths, turbine and compressor efficiency maps can all be adjusted to determine the rpm where peak TE occurs. If the chosen rpm is 10,600, the power at 10,600 will be greater than the power at 10,500.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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hollus wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:03 pm
My point was that gears overlap enough as to no matter but I had this straight line drag race from 100km/h to 300 km/h in mind.
Me too, and the 15% gap between gears would suggest the PU can be maintained within 1% or 2% of the power peak.

The subtleties would lie in things like rpm at corner exit - it would be ideal if the PU was at the bottom of the 15% band mentioned above. acceleration from low speeds is most critical.

Getting the ratios right might also mean one less gearchange on a particular straight.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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gruntguru wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:44 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:10 pm
Yes correct, 10500RPM is the lowest possible at maximum fuel ‘flow’ as allowed by the rules. As above 10500 RPM no additional fuel ‘flow’ is allowed to flow by the rules, no additional power is possible to be produced by the ICE above 10500 RPM.
Power = Fuel flow x Thermal efficiency.

Thermal efficiency will never be the same at all rpm. Factors like camshaft design, intake and exhaust runner lengths, turbine and compressor efficiency maps can all be adjusted to determine the rpm where peak TE occurs. If the chosen rpm is 10,600, the power at 10,600 will be greater than the power at 10,500.
[/quote

Any RPM other than 10500 can be the engine speed of chose for maximum power produced, but that power produced will be power produced with less fuel per combustion than what can be produced at 10500 RPM. Now lets please concentrate on the gearing subject. I know that in
the previous NA engine formula the transmission reduced crankshaft maximum rotational speed to rear driven wheels rotational speed in three stages. also know that 2600 RPM was the respected maximum for tyre size used. I have no doubt that crankshaft to rear driven wheels speed is still reduced in three stages in the present turbocharged formula. but would be interesting to know, first what is respected as the maximum RPM of the new bigger diameter tyres being used, and also what the most popular numbers are for the new three stage reduction of the much lower maximum crankshaft rotational speed in use with the new bigger diameter tyres. As an example. in the prime of the NA 3.0L V10 era with the engine restricted to 18000 RPM and with a mandated seven speed gearbox but with no limitation on ratios selection use from track to track, there was never any need by anybody to change any of the seven speeds ratios in season, as the whole transmission ratios were upped or lowered by the use of at lest three different spiral bevels ratios sets to best suited track being raced on. one team I know of used the three reduction ratio of 0.156, accomplished by 1st stage gear cluster, 2nd stage intermediate bevel gear set (0.61) speed reduction, 3rd stage straight-cut final drive gear pair (0.306) reduction. giving an overall (0.186) reduction for the final two stages. with three alternative bevel-gear pairs to chose from from track to track of ratios (14/50), (14/52), and (15/49).

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:02 am
hollus wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:03 pm
My point was that gears overlap enough as to no matter but I had this straight line drag race from 100km/h to 300 km/h in mind.
Me too, and the 15% gap between gears would suggest the PU can be maintained within 1% or 2% of the power peak.

The subtleties would lie in things like rpm at corner exit - it would be ideal if the PU was at the bottom of the 15% band mentioned above. acceleration from low speeds is most critical.

Getting the ratios right might also mean one less gearchange on a particular straight.
Gearing is always a compromise even on one track. But your point is very valid in seeking the best compromise for the tracks they run. Though the power units these days are more forgiving, they still have limits and weak spots.