Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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yamahasho
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Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Hello all, has anyone observed how races in the mid to late 2000’s appear to make the cars look faster on TV and today’s cars appear to look slow except when you get lesser frame rate onboard?

I believe the older tv camera’s probably had a lower frame rate FPS but perhaps it’s something else, I tried watching on my laptop, other tv’s but today’s cars just appear slow on the tv. Anyone seeing this?

I understand a lot of the lap records were broken in the v10 era but looking back at old videos those cars look so fast, coming out of the pit, you can see how fast they accelerate and turn in, are unlike today. I bet if you go back to the 90’s the cars appear even faster.

For todays cars, I only see an actual representation of speed in the onboard shots since that makes the car look how fast it’s actually going. Maybe less quality camera?

Maybe I’m just losing it or just want to see the cars go faster. Has technology played tricks on us.
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DChemTech
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Size and weight? The smaller cars were a lot more nervous, which makes them seem faster. Compare being in a go-kart at 60 kph with being in a sedan.

yamahasho
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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I don’t know, everyone try to look up older videos say 04-06 like Japan or Monza, you’ll see how much faster Schmacher, Coulthard, Alonso, Montoya, Kimi they look. It’s almost scary.

I understand a larger car looks and is more stable, 1300lbs versus 2000 pounds today but the speed I see them on TV, today, except the helmet onboards, appears slower than they actually are.

I don’t get it.
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Big Tea
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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DChemTech wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 19:13
Size and weight? The smaller cars were a lot more nervous, which makes them seem faster. Compare being in a go-kart at 60 kph with being in a sedan.
Much more agile, so 'darty' and less mass changes direction more easily, and scale always deduces the speed effect.
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hollus
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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I remember being glued to a full race of Alonso chasing Schumacher in Barcelona... 2003? Nothing happend like for a full race, but they looked so fast!

Well, one source of input would be this, from an "official" source:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/old- ... v/4863588/

And another, more fun, IMO, is this:
viewtopic.php?t=20279&hilit=camera+camera

In my opinion, the main contributing factor is the fast moving objects in the sides of the image, as every videogame maker of the 80s and 90s knows. And they were not moving faster in Senna's or Schumi's glory days, they were just closer to the cars and got exposed to the camera until they were much, much closer to the cars.
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yamahasho
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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hollus wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 19:57
I remember being glued to a full race of Alonso chasing Schumacher in Barcelona... 2003? Nothing happend like for a full race, but they looked so fast!

Well, one source of input would be this, from an "official" source:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/old- ... v/4863588/

And another, more fun, IMO, is this:
viewtopic.php?t=20279&hilit=camera+camera

In my opinion, the main contributing factor is the fast moving objects in the sides of the image, as every videogame maker of the 80s and 90s knows. And they were not moving faster in Senna's or Schumi's glory days, they were just closer to the cars and got exposed to the camera until they were much, much closer to the cars.
Good find let me take a look.

This pretty much says it all,
“Modern cameras and television pick up everything crystal sharp, and that can have an impact in changing the impression of speed.”

It’s the same in the nfl, running players appear to be sliding, it’s too crisp, too much frame rate and quality.
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mzivtins
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 12:41

Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Pan & Zoom shots do look great as you can follow the car at all times, but static shots are the best for speed.

When you see the cars in reality it is always a shock at how fast they are, your perspective is static, so the approach and leaving of the car are always relative to your fixed position and focal length.

TV Cameras increase focal length which compresses the view of distance, so you can zoom in, head first to a car travelling at 200mph and it will look like a 50mph car on a very bumpy road.

It is always a trade off between showing to race from an interesting perspective that lets you know what is happening and the sense of true speed.

The one place it can be improved for free is the t-cam, it is stupid that it is not the same wide angle as human eye vision, that would give the greatest sense of speed, but of course the geometry would look off (the cars would look narrower and longer) but the sense of speed would be true.

For static shots it is very easy to achieve, just a 35mm frame with a 50mm focal length is 1:1 with how the human eye see's the world

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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I think there is the issue of track smoothness, too. Today, tracks are generally smoother - because the drivers are happy to complain and get them improved - and that makes the cars more settled. Then there is the fact that modern cars are just better than earlier cars - by that I mean they have better aero, better suspension, better braking systems - the hybrid brake balance technology is impressive at keeping the cars stable under braking.

Then add on the different way that the shows are filmed and you have cars that look to be slower even though the lap times show that they aren't.

Go and watch a modern F1 car live on track - somewhere like Copse at Silverstone is great for this - and you realise how ridiculous is the idea that a human should be able to drive one of them at such speed and be able to race another car, discuss strategies, report on what other cars are doing. The speed of approach to Copse (seen head on from the spectator viewing area immediately ahead of the old pit straight) and then the direction change as they sweep in to and through the corner is just immense. Some camera shots come close but nothing is as good as the real thing to see that these "big, fat, unresponsive" cars are anything but that.
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CMSMJ1
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Agreed that in real life that these vehicles are fecking rapido. I was amazed first time I saw them at Silverstone through Maggots/Beckets - it was madness. the smell of the fuel, the unbelieveable change of direction and the brutally loud noises was like manna for the petrolhead.

I recently took the boy to watch the WSBK at Donington Park - we were on the outside of the track after the Old Hairpin and followed the bikes through Starkeys.. It was amazing that something that I know to be fast and sketchy was so much more visceral up close. Go see the racing people...any racing.

The older cars on TV do look to be more skittish and flighty - surely the weight. The Alonso laps at Yas Marina in R25/R26? were awesome to watch.
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yamahasho
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Good replies, I thought something was off,l with what I was seeing on Tv. I’m guessing changing the frequency on the hdtv wouldn’t do much, I just have to live with it, looks like FIA is going to make me go to an actual race.
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JordanMugen
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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hollus wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 19:57
In my opinion, the main contributing factor is the fast moving objects in the sides of the image, as every videogame maker of the 80s and 90s knows.
That's just a wider field of view (a shorter lens). Here's an example with a 2022 car with a wide angle Go-Pro:



yamahasho wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 18:52
I believe the older tv camera’s probably had a lower frame rate FPS but perhaps it’s something else
Possibly it is in filmed in 50 fps (50 Hz) with 1/100s shutter speed now, whereas it may have been filmed in 25 fps with 1/50s shutter speed before. Faster shutter speeds reduce motion blur. :)

The shutter speed being approximately 1/frame rate is an old film convention from the days when there needed to be a pause between shutter openings to physically move the film through the camera. 1/48s as in film (24fps) or 1/50s shutter as in PAL video (25fps) generally gives a natural looking level of motion blur (motion blur is physically encoded within the frames of a video, it's not something created in the mind of the person watching the video, unlike motion blur of real life objects). Whereas 1/100s or 1/120s shutter as in 50fps or 60fps video (as fashionable nowadays) can give the impression of things being as if in "slow motion" with an unnatural lack of motion blur.

That's not to say FOM necessarily use this principle, as it's no longer necessary with digital video cameras (or video cameras in general). Actually F1 would have largely been filmed on video historically (be it Orthicon tubes or later CCD), hence we rarely have sharp historical film footage, and so I don't think shutter speed should be relevant [I don't claim to know about the intricacies of interlaced video and how professional video cameras work!].

^ Yes, it's technically a shutter time not a shutter speed, photography enthusiasts use incorrect terminology!

PS. The word "footage" has the same origin as "mileage" and referred to the physical footage of film or video tape... For some reason the word footage is still used even with digital video... When will film and video go metric and adopt metreage? Who knows! :)

yamahasho
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Re: Why do past generation cars appear to be going faster on certain TV’s, FPS issue?

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Hell yea that’s great, that onboard looks a lot more realistic. The the track sidelines move so much more and you can see impact during shifts, very nice.
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