Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

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yamahasho
yamahasho
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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

Hello, looks like an old technology has returned but cleverly implemented.

It's listed here:
https://www.visordown.com/news/general/ ... dive-forks

Image

Image

A big challenge for aero sensitive vehicles is to keep the car level as possible during certain braking situations and rolling situations, this solution does just that, it's an old system that has been bought back in other forms of racing. So sketching it up on a vehicle, there are many ways to do this so this is just an a general sketch:

Image

This could be a highly tunable device depending on how aggressive you want the initial dive to be and how it tapers off after that by varying shapes of the slotted curved plate which was added in this newer iteration. This lets you run less positive castor to reduce tire wear and brake lock up. And to go further, during acceleration, brakes can be applied to resist rear squat and keep the car stable, it's like "blown brakes" or a cheap way to apply wheel load during roll, usually you can't brake into or during turns too much but with this it will apply the load where the driver demands it.

Very interesting. Good on aprillia.
Last edited by yamahasho on Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NL_Fer
NL_Fer
79
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

Didn’t McLaren tried this in the 90s than got banned?

yamahasho
yamahasho
10
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:20 pm
Didn’t McLaren tried this in the 90s than got banned?
Not sure, some historians may be able to shed light on that. I know Lotus had that additional brake circuit brake system that extended the a-arms which was banned. They ban most things but it's interesting to see.
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CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:51 am
Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

yamahasho wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:03 pm
Hello, looks like an old technology has returned but cleverly implemented.

It's listed here:
https://www.visordown.com/news/general/ ... dive-forks

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... 2ae9_n.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... 4a8b_n.jpg

A big challenge for aero sensitive vehicles is to keep the car level as possible during certain braking situations and rolling situations, this solution does just that, it's an old system that has been bought back in other forms of racing. So sketching it up on a vehicle, there are many ways to do this so this is just an a general sketch:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="608"

This could be a highly tunable device depending on how aggressive you want the initial dive to be and how it tapers off after that by varying shapes of the slotted curved plate which was added in this newer iteration. This lets you run less positive castor to reduce tire wear and brake lock up. And to go further, during acceleration, brakes can be applied to resist rear squat and keep the car stable, it's like "blown brakes" or a cheap way to apply wheel load during roll, usually you can't brake into or during turns too much but with this it will apply the load where the driver demands it.

Very interesting. Good on aprillia.
Interesting post =D>

However, anti dive was a 1980s thing in bikes. It died a death. Aprilia haven't used anything suchlike in their Motogp bikes though, so it is a bit of a cheeky one for them to use that as the baseline for the proposal.

A bike that pitches is a bike you can trust - I have never ridden a no squat old skooler of a bike, or a funny front end BMW/Hossack/Telelever kind of thing - they always talk the talk..but seldom walk the walk.

Cars though - do we not have the kinematics in play to introduce anti dive through the suspension design?
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johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:21 pm
yamahasho wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:03 pm
Hello, looks like an old technology has returned but cleverly implemented.

It's listed here:
https://www.visordown.com/news/general/ ... dive-forks

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... 2ae9_n.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... 4a8b_n.jpg

A big challenge for aero sensitive vehicles is to keep the car level as possible during certain braking situations and rolling situations, this solution does just that, it's an old system that has been bought back in other forms of racing. So sketching it up on a vehicle, there are many ways to do this so this is just an a general sketch:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="608"

This could be a highly tunable device depending on how aggressive you want the initial dive to be and how it tapers off after that by varying shapes of the slotted curved plate which was added in this newer iteration. This lets you run less positive castor to reduce tire wear and brake lock up. And to go further, during acceleration, brakes can be applied to resist rear squat and keep the car stable, it's like "blown brakes" or a cheap way to apply wheel load during roll, usually you can't brake into or during turns too much but with this it will apply the load where the driver demands it.

Very interesting. Good on aprillia.
Interesting post =D>

However, anti dive was a 1980s thing in bikes. It died a death. Aprilia haven't used anything suchlike in their Motogp bikes though, so it is a bit of a cheeky one for them to use that as the baseline for the proposal.

A bike that pitches is a bike you can trust - I have never ridden a no squat old skooler of a bike, or a funny front end BMW/Hossack/Telelever kind of thing - they always talk the talk..but seldom walk the walk.

Cars though - do we not have the kinematics in play to introduce anti dive through the suspension design?
I would be cautious being declarative about motoGP anti dive, it comes and goes and on different factories and in different forms.
Always searching for a better feel for the riders, the front end is the most important.

yamahasho
yamahasho
10
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

Suspension angles and geometry will only take you so far, you balance braking versus steering axis and feel, you can’t have both. Teams have shown this, they have anti dive and squat but gave up excessive wear.

I like Aprillia’s idea bringing this back. I don’t keep up with motogp but the article says they planned on it until Covid delayed it.
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johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

Just referring to part of the title "...aerodynamically level...".
In 2013 I was talking with some McLaren engineers at Monza and remarked that the problem (with the poor performance of the McLaren) was the overriding bent to keep the car in a steady state (stiff suspension) for aero reasons and they just smiled...
Point being, they had almost completely sacrificed compliance for aero, as Julia Roberts said "...big mistake.."

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

Peter Wright, John Miles and Lotus with their mule, a Turbo Esprit, for active suspension in F1 (circa 1983).
Very good visuals.


Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

In 2012, Lotus and Ferrari had a anti-dive system that was banned.

Reactive Ride Height - Anti-dive system, preventing the car from diving under braking. Uses brake torque to adjust the ride height.

Ferrari has already developed its own version of the Lotus reactive ride-height system for its 2012 car, and is now just awaiting final approval from the FIA over its legality
...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ferra ... 3/4452693/

yamahasho
yamahasho
10
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Re: Anti-dive Anti-squat System (ADS), Blown brakes, keeping the car aerodynamically level as possible.

Post

That’s great. Thanks for sharing.
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