Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
yamahasho
yamahasho
10
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

Hello, hopefully some of you can recall the old days when the 2nd brake pedal existed, now banned, the aim was to load up the inside tire by applying the brake to that side (they used rear), and send the power to the outside rear, reducing understeer, they said “it improved cornering aerodynamics as the front wheels would be straighter and drivers didn’t have to carry as much front wing on corner entry, making the car more stable.” With a conventional brake pedal, the pedal only moves in one direction and returns to it's initial position. Like this:

Image

But why limit to just one movement, when the pedal is not in use, use the left and right movement to steer the car during an under-steering situation,
Image

Typical left and right master cylinder:
Image

The simplest solution, decouple the front pistons, one main split into two rods, then opposite side pistons controlled by the movement of the pedal, left or right, for each caliper:
Image

It gets more complicated if you want to use a single brake rod, so put a stopper on the secondary piston (can be hydraulic or electronic), also possibly go to an internal compensating port, using something similar to how a pressure differential valve works but with some tweaks:
Image

Then the circuit looks like this:
Image

The rear can be done in a similar way but since rear can be brake by wire, I would use the brake by wire electronics to activate the caliper you need to load up on the rear. Now you can continue to apply the brake to the side driver wants. It's unconventional and would take some getting used to.
Supercharged Ford Taurus SHO 5spd. Sold.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
79
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

I believe Ferrari was building this at the time, but the FIA immediately banned any brake steer systems.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:09 pm
I believe Ferrari was building this at the time, but the FIA immediately banned any brake steer systems.
And McLaren

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

yamahasho wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:51 pm
Hello, hopefully some of you can recall the old days when the 2nd brake pedal existed, now banned, the aim was to load up the inside tire by applying the brake to that side (they used rear), and send the power to the outside rear, reducing understeer, they said “it improved cornering aerodynamics as the front wheels would be straighter and drivers didn’t have to carry as much front wing on corner entry, making the car more stable.” With a conventional brake pedal, the pedal only moves in one direction and returns to it's initial position. Like this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="474"

But why limit to just one movement, when the pedal is not in use, use the left and right movement to steer the car during an under-steering situation,
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="459"

Typical left and right master cylinder:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="243"

The simplest solution, decouple the front pistons, one main split into two rods, then opposite side pistons controlled by the movement of the pedal, left or right, for each caliper:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="267"

It gets more complicated if you want to use a single brake rod, so put a stopper on the secondary piston (can be hydraulic or electronic), also possibly go to an internal compensating port, using something similar to how a pressure differential valve works but with some tweaks:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="330"

Then the circuit looks like this:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="605"

The rear can be done in a similar way but since rear can be brake by wire, I would use the brake by wire electronics to activate the caliper you need to load up on the rear. Now you can continue to apply the brake to the side driver wants. It's unconventional and would take some getting used to.
Would it be right to say that you have the opposite of this (power not braking) but the same effect from the variable diff settings?

yamahasho
yamahasho
10
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:04 am
Location: USA

Re: Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:21 pm
yamahasho wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:51 pm
Hello, hopefully some of you can recall the old days when the 2nd brake pedal existed, now banned, the aim was to load up the inside tire by applying the brake to that side (they used rear), and send the power to the outside rear, reducing understeer, they said “it improved cornering aerodynamics as the front wheels would be straighter and drivers didn’t have to carry as much front wing on corner entry, making the car more stable.” With a conventional brake pedal, the pedal only moves in one direction and returns to it's initial position. Like this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="474"

But why limit to just one movement, when the pedal is not in use, use the left and right movement to steer the car during an under-steering situation,
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="459"

Typical left and right master cylinder:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="243"

The simplest solution, decouple the front pistons, one main split into two rods, then opposite side pistons controlled by the movement of the pedal, left or right, for each caliper:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="267"

It gets more complicated if you want to use a single brake rod, so put a stopper on the secondary piston (can be hydraulic or electronic), also possibly go to an internal compensating port, using something similar to how a pressure differential valve works but with some tweaks:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="330"

Then the circuit looks like this:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... ight="605"

The rear can be done in a similar way but since rear can be brake by wire, I would use the brake by wire electronics to activate the caliper you need to load up on the rear. Now you can continue to apply the brake to the side driver wants. It's unconventional and would take some getting used to.
Would it be right to say that you have the opposite of this (power not braking) but the same effect from the variable diff settings?
If I get what you’re saying then yes a variable diff does the same thing but I was under the assumption F1 diffs can only be adjusted for the overall lock so both rear wheels would have the same percentage of lock but if they have a way to vary the lock up on the inside tire then what I posted wouldn’t be needed.
Supercharged Ford Taurus SHO 5spd. Sold.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
79
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Decoupled brake system (DBS), master cylinder, for understeering, heel braking, Brake by wire, “brake steer” system

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:19 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:09 pm
I believe Ferrari was building this at the time, but the FIA immediately banned any brake steer systems.
And McLaren
McLaren had the 2nd brake pedal, than Ferrari developed a left-right Steerable brake pedal. But it all got banned, before running it in a car.