2022 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 07 - 09

[Big Tea]

Would it be useful to have some sort of quick fix/unfix spray guards for use with the worst wet tyre? Possibly something resembling a motorcycle or Caterham style made of something like polyethene that can easily be removed when they come off that tyre.
It is bad enough on the road passing a truck that (allegedly) stays in its lane, but being among 19 other spray machines who see the whole track as their own must be murder and can not be called safe

[Just_a_fan]

They probably need to go to an intermediate “heavy” and “light”. The full wet will always produce too much spray. Especially now with the ground effect throwing water up this high.

Or the tracks could use porous tarmac when they resurface.

Civil here. Cars like F1 cars would destroy porous paving in a single session.

OK, fair enough. I did wonder if they would be too extreme for that sort of solution.

[PlatinumZealot]

What a shambolic race!

I really don't know what happened because I switched off right after it ended. Now I'm seeing Max as world champion?!

Disgusting by the FIA!

[DChemTech]

What a shambolic race!

I really don't know what happened because I switched off right after it ended. Now I'm seeing Max as world champion?!

Disgusting by the FIA!

Why? Max won, Leclerc made an error that was rightly penalized, and points were awarded according to the regulations. One can question those regulations, sure, but they were applies as written.

[organic]

What a shambolic race!

I really don't know what happened because I switched off right after it ended. Now I'm seeing Max as world champion?!

Disgusting by the FIA!

Why? Max won, Leclerc made an error that was rightly penalized, and points were awarded according to the regulations. One can question those regulations, sure, but they were applies as written.

The commentators/FOM had no idea that full points were to be awarded for the race, as a result of it having finished under green flag conditions. If the race does not get abandoned / finished under red flag, then the supposedly more robust partial points hauls instituted in response to Spa '21 simply don't apply. Shambolic race for that reason, since if the FIA had communicated this, then the Leclerc-Perez would've been a fight for Max's championship not just P2.

Also all of the safety issues with the tractor on track. It is terrible management from FIA to allow these issues to keep happening. Responses from all drivers can show you it's unacceptable for tractor to literally be on the track in those conditions whilst cars are not in the pitlane.

F1 was lucky today. The safety procedures and protocols we have failed, but we got lucky

[DChemTech]

What a shambolic race!

I really don't know what happened because I switched off right after it ended. Now I'm seeing Max as world champion?!

Disgusting by the FIA!

Why? Max won, Leclerc made an error that was rightly penalized, and points were awarded according to the regulations. One can question those regulations, sure, but they were applies as written.

The commentators/FOM had no idea that full points were to be awarded for the race, as a result of it having finished under green flag conditions. If the race does not get abandoned / finished under red flag, then the supposedly more robust partial points hauls instituted in response to Spa '21 simply don't apply. Shambolic race for that reason, since if the FIA had communicated this, then the Leclerc-Perez would've been a fight for Max's championship not just P2.

Also all of the safety issues with the tractor on track. It is terrible management from FIA to allow these issues to keep happening. Responses from all drivers can show you it's unacceptable for tractor to literally be on the track in those conditions whilst cars are not in the pitlane.

F1 was lucky today that we didn't experience another luck. The safety procedures and protocols we have failed, but we got lucky

Sure, all of those things are completely true, but the statement applies it was 'disgusting' because Max became champion. Of all the things that happened, that was one of the few things that was actually correct (even if seemingly noone - journalists or on the F1 teams - realized it until it was explicitly said)

[BlueCheetah66]

What people need to realise is that this is an unprecedented scenario, unless I am incorrect. I don't think there has been a race, at least in recent time, when the race has finished under green flag conditions, but not reached within 75% of the race distance. Every other time reduced points have been awarded, it has been because of a suspended race, where they have not resumed and either just ended the race. Because of this, no one had realised that the rule that states that races shorter than 75% distance had only ever applied to abandoned/suspended races, as stated in the regulations. Whether it was Brazil 2016 or Singapore 2022, any races that finish under green flags due to the timer are justified to be scored with full points. I don't think it's fair to bash the FIA for this rule, because it has never actually had to be questioned. I agree they should have maybe clarified, whether it was just a message to the teams and the broadcast, that full points were allowed to be awarded but if they were never asked to do so, there was little reason other than just pure clarity to do it.

[Sofa King]

When the rules of the sport are so confusing the announcers, media and 99% of the fans don’t know what’s happening, it’s not a sport, it’s a parliamentary maneuver

[Sieper]

What people need to realise is that this is an unprecedented scenario, unless I am incorrect. I don't think there has been a race, at least in recent time, when the race has finished under green flag conditions, but not reached within 75% of the race distance. Every other time reduced points have been awarded, it has been because of a suspended race, where they have not resumed and either just ended the race. Because of this, no one had realised that the rule that states that races shorter than 75% distance had only ever applied to abandoned/suspended races, as stated in the regulations. Whether it was Brazil 2016 or Singapore 2022, any races that finish under green flags due to the timer are justified to be scored with full points. I don't think it's fair to bash the FIA for this rule, because it has never actually had to be questioned. I agree they should have maybe clarified, whether it was just a message to the teams and the broadcast, that full points were allowed to be awarded but if they were never asked to do so, there was little reason other than just pure clarity to do it.

The weird thing to me is the complete misunderstanding/disperacy between FIA (who had it clear all along and were actually displaying the correct points during the race) and the teams&press on the other side who were heavily calculating the scenarios all the time, but had no idea of the actual rule.

I think the no radio contact during the race (after last years trying to influence the stewards shenanigans) plays a part in this.

A bit of a shame, but at least it could still be celebrated.

And the other big talking point. That tractor already was on the actual track. We really need to improve here. That is too dangerous. People must drive slowly when that happens, a system to absolutely ensure that needs to be put in place. Now it was just moving from double yellow to red as Gasly arrived at the scene. Yes going too fast but people always try to go fast if it benefits them.

[Hoffman900]

I’m requoting myself as I don’t think people have a grasp on that the issues with wet tires are 1) open wheel cars 2) the current aero concept to lift the wake up high 3) the better a wet tire works, the more water it displaces. F1 is going to always have these problems going forward.

There isn’t a manufacturer that wants to touch this ten foot pole. Pirelli is mandated to develop tires that work while also produce a show, meanwhile the FIA does their own thing and continues to make the cars heavier and heavier. The tires can’t be all things.

Why would that mandate apply to wet weather tyres though? Are they really that dumb that they’ve instructed ‘show’ tyres for wet compounds too? I just don’t think Pirelli have the expertise.

If you think this is a --- show, go take a look at Dunlop’s issues in Australia right now, or Goodyear’s problems in NASCAR.

The issue with the rain tires is two fold:
1) open wheels
2) the aero concept of the new cars.

The better a rain tire works, the more water it evacuates. The larger the surface area on the ground, the more water that needs to be evacuated. The more water evacuated, the more water in the air (and no fenders to keep it under the car or direct out the side) and the more water in the air + an aero concept that forces air up (to reduce dirty air at car level from a trailing car) means more water in the air, which equals worst visibility.

The best rain tire from a visibility standpoint is a slick. The better the rain tire = the worse the visibility, especially in an open wheel car.

[BlueCheetah66]

What people need to realise is that this is an unprecedented scenario, unless I am incorrect. I don't think there has been a race, at least in recent time, when the race has finished under green flag conditions, but not reached within 75% of the race distance. Every other time reduced points have been awarded, it has been because of a suspended race, where they have not resumed and either just ended the race. Because of this, no one had realised that the rule that states that races shorter than 75% distance had only ever applied to abandoned/suspended races, as stated in the regulations. Whether it was Brazil 2016 or Singapore 2022, any races that finish under green flags due to the timer are justified to be scored with full points. I don't think it's fair to bash the FIA for this rule, because it has never actually had to be questioned. I agree they should have maybe clarified, whether it was just a message to the teams and the broadcast, that full points were allowed to be awarded but if they were never asked to do so, there was little reason other than just pure clarity to do it.

The weird thing to me is the complete misunderstanding/disperacy between FIA (who had it clear all along and were actually displaying the correct points during the race) and the teams&press on the other side who were heavily calculating the scenarios all the time, but had no idea of the actual rule.

I think the no radio contact during the race (after last years trying to influence the stewards shenanigans) plays a part in this.

A bit of a shame, but at least it could still be celebrated.

And the other big talking point. That tractor already was on the actual track. We really need to improve here. That is too dangerous. People must drive slowly when that happens, a system to absolutely ensure that needs to be put in place. Now it was just moving from double yellow to red as Gasly arrived at the scene. Yes going too fast but people always try to go fast if it benefits them.

Like I said, its always been the rule that the points would be awarded the way it was today if a similar situation had happened before. I assume that after 'We need to reach 75% for full points' being said once or twice it became what everyone thought was the rule and it was never proved wrong until now.

All the incidents that are on the FIA behalf are arguably down to very poor communication. Could they not have mentioned it to Sky atleast, who were saying a lot about how points were potentially to be awarded, that it was actually wrong. It would have saved all the confusion and someone at the FIA was probably watching their coverage. They should have abandoned the first scheduled restart before all the teams were ready to go. The decision would not have been made on the spot.

And on the tractor, I find it crazy that they did not think to make the teams aware there was a tractor on track when the visibility was so bad. It just seems like an obvious precaution to take on the FIAs part. Horner said they only found out about the tractor by Perez telling them on radio. That should never be happening. Having teams with radio contact with the FIA could have solved all of these, and both ways, with the RD able to address all team representatives

[Just_a_fan]

I’m requoting myself as I don’t think people have a grasp on that the issues with wet tires are 1) open wheel cars 2) the current aero concept to lift the wake up high 3) the better a wet tire works, the more water it displaces. F1 is going to always have these problems going forward.

Exactly so. The better the tyre is at moving water, the more water is off the surface and in the air. The more the cars are designed to lift the air behind them upwards, the more the water will likewise be lifted.

Some of that can be reduced by the use of wheel covers (mud guards) but they would need to extend quite close to the tarmac to catch and deflect the water back down on to the ground. Those guards would have to be FIA mandated parts or the teams will use them to create outwash. Any such guard will change the airflow going to the rest of the car so would probably need to be fitted in dry and wet conditions to ensure the cars weren't totally different in different conditions.

Or we just accept that driving an pen wheeled car in the rain is bloody difficult and visibility is always going to be atrocious and decide to either:
1. not run in the wet, or
2. just get on with it like they used to.

Drivers and teams say the wet tyre isn't good enough and that there isn't an overlap between the wet and inter. Well, that can be dealt with by Pirelli but the sport needs to accept it will create more spray in the process.

Ultimately, the issue isn't the tyres per se, it's the politics and attitudes to running in the wet from the FIA, teams and drivers.

Today:


1994:


One might even say that the spray today was worse than in 1994, but if it is, it's because the tyres and the aero are lifting more water in to the air.

[Sieper]

What people need to realise is that this is an unprecedented scenario, unless I am incorrect. I don't think there has been a race, at least in recent time, when the race has finished under green flag conditions, but not reached within 75% of the race distance. Every other time reduced points have been awarded, it has been because of a suspended race, where they have not resumed and either just ended the race. Because of this, no one had realised that the rule that states that races shorter than 75% distance had only ever applied to abandoned/suspended races, as stated in the regulations. Whether it was Brazil 2016 or Singapore 2022, any races that finish under green flags due to the timer are justified to be scored with full points. I don't think it's fair to bash the FIA for this rule, because it has never actually had to be questioned. I agree they should have maybe clarified, whether it was just a message to the teams and the broadcast, that full points were allowed to be awarded but if they were never asked to do so, there was little reason other than just pure clarity to do it.

The weird thing to me is the complete misunderstanding/disperacy between FIA (who had it clear all along and were actually displaying the correct points during the race) and the teams&press on the other side who were heavily calculating the scenarios all the time, but had no idea of the actual rule.

I think the no radio contact during the race (after last years trying to influence the stewards shenanigans) plays a part in this.

A bit of a shame, but at least it could still be celebrated.

And the other big talking point. That tractor already was on the actual track. We really need to improve here. That is too dangerous. People must drive slowly when that happens, a system to absolutely ensure that needs to be put in place. Now it was just moving from double yellow to red as Gasly arrived at the scene. Yes going too fast but people always try to go fast if it benefits them.

Like I said, its always been the rule that the points would be awarded the way it was today if a similar situation had happened before. I assume that after 'We need to reach 75% for full points' being said once or twice it became what everyone thought was the rule and it was never proved wrong until now.

All the incidents that are on the FIA behalf are arguably down to very poor communication. Could they not have mentioned it to Sky atleast, who were saying a lot about how points were potentially to be awarded, that it was actually wrong. It would have saved all the confusion and someone at the FIA was probably watching their coverage. They should have abandoned the first scheduled restart before all the teams were ready to go. The decision would not have been made on the spot.

And on the tractor, I find it crazy that they did not think to make the teams aware there was a tractor on track when the visibility was so bad. It just seems like an obvious precaution to take on the FIAs part. Horner said they only found out about the tractor by Perez telling them on radio. That should never be happening. Having teams with radio contact with the FIA could have solved all of these, and both ways, with the RD able to address all team representatives

Exactly. Communication was what is at fault. And I think we saw today that nobody at FIA is watching any of the live feeds. Not even an apprentice or so. They thought everyone knew the clear and imho good rules while no one did.

Same indeed with the tractor. I think we possibly need a indicator on the steering wheel that will light up as soon (slightly before and only then it may move from behind the barrier) as a vehicle enters the track, and an audio communication informing all drivers where that is.

[PlatinumZealot]

I’m requoting myself as I don’t think people have a grasp on that the issues with wet tires are 1) open wheel cars 2) the current aero concept to lift the wake up high 3) the better a wet tire works, the more water it displaces. F1 is going to always have these problems going forward.

Exactly so. The better the tyre is at moving water, the more water is off the surface and in the air. The more the cars are designed to lift the air behind them upwards, the more the water will likewise be lifted.

Some of that can be reduced by the use of wheel covers (mud guards) but they would need to extend quite close to the tarmac to catch and deflect the water back down on to the ground. Those guards would have to be FIA mandated parts or the teams will use them to create outwash. Any such guard will change the airflow going to the rest of the car so would probably need to be fitted in dry and wet conditions to ensure the cars weren't totally different in different conditions.

Or we just accept that driving an pen wheeled car in the rain is bloody difficult and visibility is always going to be atrocious and decide to either:
1. not run in the wet, or
2. just get on with it like they used to.

Drivers and teams say the wet tyre isn't good enough and that there isn't an overlap between the wet and inter. Well, that can be dealt with by Pirelli but the sport needs to accept it will create more spray in the process.

Ultimately, the issue isn't the tyres per se, it's the politics and attitudes to running in the wet from the FIA, teams and drivers.

Today:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... it_rgb.jpg

1994:
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... n-b-1.webp

One might even say that the spray today was worse than in 1994, but if it is, it's because the tyres and the aero are lifting more water in to the air.

This!! We had an entire thread devoted to it. And In the words of Mario Isola Today there is not much you can do about spray!!

[Juzh]

So, they ended the race 1 lap early but it still counts as race over? Alpine should have continued and cross the line and then protest the result.

yes, it happened before I think in china some year. What's strange is they didn't rollback 1 lap further as per the regs, and thus verstappen would not yet be champion.

Weird. Will FIA simply ignore this rule due to circumstances? I mean if I'm ferrari I'm protesting the result just because it puts leclerc back in P2, but perhaps they think it's not worth the effort.