Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Engine block material - aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI for Formula 1 ?

I know that F1 engine manufacturers use aluminum for their engine blocks but why not compacted graphite iron CGI which is used by Nascar teams and seems to have some benefits like added strength. CGI is lighter than the regular iron blocks in diesel engines and stronger than aluminum 319, A356, A357.

Since CGI is stronger and tougher, block walls can be thinner and main bearing saddles narrower, trimming overall engine length and weight. No cylinder liners or expensive bore-surface treatments are needed inside the strong CGI, a significant cost savings. CGI is tougher, more ­compact, and less expensive than the all-aluminum alternative.


Compacted Graphite Iron vs Alloyed Grey Iron...



Audi 3.0L V6 with engine block made out of CGI...
vs...
Mercedes 3.0L V6 made out of aluminum...

The Audi CGI engine is 15 kilos lighter and 125mm shorter in length...

Last edited by Honda Porsche fan on Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:30 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Zynerji
108
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.

User avatar
JordanMugen
68
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

The Honda F1 blocks in the 80's were cast iron.

I believe NASCAR rules actually require cast iron (or compacted graphite iron as you say), where most Chevrolet/Cadillac/Corvette and Ford road-going V8s use aluminium alloy blocks.

The latest Corvette Z06 engine even has DOHC and a flat-plane crank -- it sounds like a Ferrari! Good to see Chevrolet finally seeing the error in their ways and realising how to make a proper V8: less displacement, more camshafts, more revs -- yes! :wink:

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:10 am
I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.
A (reinforced) plastic engine! :shock:

Should carbon-fibre wheels (like the Corvette) also be permitted? Perhaps the mandated metallic wheels are anachronistic and outdated, also?

User avatar
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:29 am
The Honda F1 blocks in the 80's were cast iron.

I believe NASCAR rules actually require cast iron (or compacted graphite iron as you say), where most Chevrolet/Cadillac/Corvette and Ford road-going V8s use aluminium alloy blocks.

The latest Corvette Z06 engine even has DOHC and a flat-plane crank -- it sounds like a Ferrari! Good to see Chevrolet finally seeing the error in their ways and realising how to make a proper V8: less displacement, more camshafts, more revs -- yes! :wink:

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:10 am
I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.
A (reinforced) plastic engine! :shock:

Should carbon-fibre wheels (like the Corvette) also be permitted? Perhaps the mandated metallic wheels are anachronistic and outdated, also?
Yes, most cars today have aluminum engine blocks...

The Ford F150's 2.7 liter EcoBoost has a compacted graphite iron CGI engine block. It saves weight and is very durable.
CGI also has the added advantage of not needing cylinder liners...

https://www.motortrend.com/features/141 ... side-look/

I'm curious if F1 and Indycar could use CGI engine blocks?

When Honda entered Indycar racing around 1993-94 they were using cast iron engine blocks. This new CGI is lighter and stronger.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:47 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:29 am
The Honda F1 blocks in the 80's were cast iron.

I believe NASCAR rules actually require cast iron (or compacted graphite iron as you say), where most Chevrolet/Cadillac/Corvette and Ford road-going V8s use aluminium alloy blocks.

The latest Corvette Z06 engine even has DOHC and a flat-plane crank -- it sounds like a Ferrari! Good to see Chevrolet finally seeing the error in their ways and realising how to make a proper V8: less displacement, more camshafts, more revs -- yes! :wink:

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:10 am
I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.
A (reinforced) plastic engine! :shock:

Should carbon-fibre wheels (like the Corvette) also be permitted? Perhaps the mandated metallic wheels are anachronistic and outdated, also?
Yes, most cars today have aluminum engine blocks...

The Ford F150's 2.7 liter EcoBoost has a compacted graphite iron CGI engine block. It saves weight and is very durable.
CGI also has the added advantage of not needing cylinder liners...

https://www.motortrend.com/features/141 ... side-look/

I'm curious if F1 and Indycar could use CGI engine blocks?

When Honda entered Indycar racing around 1993-94 they were using cast iron engine blocks. This new CGI is lighter and stronger.
Big subject, but just on the point of liners the current F1 aluminium blocks dont have liners

Maritimer
Maritimer
19
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:45 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Why are aluminum blocks a problem? This seems like a solution looking for an issue seeing as its only real world application now is to make lighter iron castings and not as a direct substitute for aluminum. Car makers are only starting to use it because they can afford to give up the weight vs aluminum and it saves them a couple bucks.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
592
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

nothing to see here ?

people have been making step improvments in CI for c.100 years ....
isn't this at best just another small step on that road ?
(since 300 years ago CI properties are a big step backwards due to coke replacing charcoal for the smelting)

CGI seems to be for the current century rather as Meehanite CI seems to have been for the previous century)

what Ford seems to have reinvented is the engine of two main pieces (rather than one)

no-one has an Al. alloy piston running in an unlined Al. alloy bore
'linerless' bores are lined with an integral deposited surface - yes there's no separate liner component
(or Chevrolet Vega-style - wherein the pistons were also coated with iron)

the c.1960 215 Buick/Oldsmobile was alloy because they expected to have linerless technology
but had to go the cast-in dry liner route which was a nightmare productionwise
(Rover then took production conventional - and expensive)
CI promptly responded with improved cast fluidity - the 'thin-wall' castings

the alloy head that doesn't need separate valve seatings is another 'holy grail'
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Zynerji
108
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:29 am
The Honda F1 blocks in the 80's were cast iron.

I believe NASCAR rules actually require cast iron (or compacted graphite iron as you say), where most Chevrolet/Cadillac/Corvette and Ford road-going V8s use aluminium alloy blocks.

The latest Corvette Z06 engine even has DOHC and a flat-plane crank -- it sounds like a Ferrari! Good to see Chevrolet finally seeing the error in their ways and realising how to make a proper V8: less displacement, more camshafts, more revs -- yes! :wink:

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:10 am
I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.
A (reinforced) plastic engine! :shock:

Should carbon-fibre wheels (like the Corvette) also be permitted? Perhaps the mandated metallic wheels are anachronistic and outdated, also?
While a 270c resistant polymer could live in an engine block, I doubt it would hold up when housing 600c brakes!

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:29 am

Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:10 am
I don't think the blocks are really a problem in F1. If they weren't mandated to be aluminum, they would probably be a 2d polymer infused forged carbon fiber already.
A (reinforced) plastic engine! :shock:
About 30 years ago Ford had a plastic engine block in prototype (with a very thin liner for the bore. No idea what happened to that!?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

User avatar
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:05 am

what Ford seems to have reinvented is the engine of two main pieces (rather than one)
That was only one engine design put into production using CGI.

SinterCast and Tupy which makes CGI blocks can make CGI blocks as a complete block without any aluminum housing. When it comes to energy producing aluminum vs iron blocks It uses less energy producing grey cast iron and compacted graphite iron blocks compared to aluminum blocks...

Life Cycle Analysis - Cast Iron vs. Aluminium...


johnny comelately
johnny comelately
80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

CGI gets your hands too dirty (when machining) :wink:

noname
noname
10
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:55 am
Location: EU

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:58 am
Engine block material - aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI for Formula 1 ?

I know that F1 engine manufacturers use aluminum for their engine blocks but why not compacted graphite iron CGI which is used by Nascar teams and seems to have some benefits like added strength. CGI is lighter than the regular iron blocks in diesel engines and stronger than aluminum 319, A356, A357. (...)
One of OEMs competing in LeMans used casted AL engine blocks with min walls thickness <2mm.
CGI may be stronger, but you can make it much thinner than that.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
592
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:27 pm
... When it comes to energy producing aluminum vs iron blocks It uses less energy producing grey cast iron and compacted graphite iron blocks compared to aluminum blocks...
what matters isn't 'energy' it's CO2

iron is smelted using carbon (coke) as the reducing agent (& heat source)
this liberates huge amounts of CO2
unless and until the blast furnaces are replaced with equivalents using hydrogen as the reducing agent instead of carbon

aluminium smelting traditionally uses 'free' hydro-electricity (it was cheaper to move aluminium than electricity)


btw contrary to the OP statements .....
CGI isn't stronger than 'aluminium' (weight-for-weight) - yes of course it's stronger size-for-size

User avatar
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 11:43 am
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:27 pm
... When it comes to energy producing aluminum vs iron blocks It uses less energy producing grey cast iron and compacted graphite iron blocks compared to aluminum blocks...
what matters isn't 'energy' it's CO2

iron is smelted using carbon (coke) as the reducing agent (& heat source)
this liberates huge amounts of CO2
unless and until the blast furnaces are replaced with equivalents using hydrogen as the reducing agent instead of carbon

aluminium smelting traditionally uses 'free' hydro-electricity (it was cheaper to move aluminium than electricity)


btw contrary to the OP statements .....
CGI isn't stronger than 'aluminium' (weight-for-weight) - yes of course it's stronger size-for-size
TATA Steel in the Netherlands is suppose to be updating their blast furnaces by using either hydrogen or natural gas...

DRI - ‘directly reduced iron’...

"iron ore is reduced with hydrogen or natural gas instead of coal. The reduced iron is then processed in an electric furnace into the hot liquid metal with the addition of carbon. Scrap can also be used in the new process, which makes the business model more circular. The new production method does not affect the quality of the steel."...

https://newmobility.news/2022/08/30/tat ... therlands/

Now, which is superior for less CO2 output? Hydrogen or natural gas for less CO2 ? What about nuclear power to power a foundry or steel mil ?

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

Post

Because a F1 engine is a stressed member cast iron cracks