2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:56 pm
What would it have depended on? Not partnering with Honda again?

I can't say I understand the purpose the additive manufacturing note. I wasn't aware that this was under consideration to be banned.
Its not quite clear I think. It was also due to fact that Merc and Renault did not oppose RBPT as new entry. 3D printing was related to some Audi demands to oust it and Ferrari invested a lot and want to use it in road car tech as well.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

mendis
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:56 pm
Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:22 pm
Would explain why Ferrariin the end accepted RB 2026 entry as new engine maker.
What would it have depended on? Not partnering with Honda again?
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.

Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.

Cs98
Cs98
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:18 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:56 pm
Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:22 pm
Would explain why Ferrariin the end accepted RB 2026 entry as new engine maker.
What would it have depended on? Not partnering with Honda again?
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.

Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.

The challenge of being a new engine manufacturer is much more than just having previous design knowledge. You are going up against already fully staffed manufacturers that have had decades to invest in factory infrastructure and perfect their design/manufacturing process. The concessions for new manufacturers are relatively modest when compared to that accumulated investment and experience. The fact RBPT has hired employees with previous experience I view as a pre-requisite to even get a project like this off the ground, not gaming the system.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cs98 wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:38 pm
mendis wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:18 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:56 pm


What would it have depended on? Not partnering with Honda again?
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.

Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.

The challenge of being a new engine manufacturer is much more than just having previous design knowledge. You are going up against already fully staffed manufacturers that have had decades to invest in factory infrastructure and perfect their design/manufacturing process. The concessions for new manufacturers are relatively modest when compared to that accumulated investment and experience. The fact RBPT has hired employees with previous experience I view as a pre-requisite to even get a project like this off the ground, not gaming the system.
and even then, I'm rather skeptical about RBPT. Making a powerful and reliable PU is an enormous challenge. Ferrari and Renault have been doing it for years and still never quite got it right.

It took Honda several years to get it right.

Ferrari weren't neccesarily arguing from a perspective of logic. They are simply choosing to exercise their right to make things difficult for a rival. That's right out of the political toolbox.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:50 pm
It took Honda several years to get it right.
Honda was stuck with a wrong partner from the beginning that made the job more difficult than it probably could have been.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-red ... honda-boss
“If we had continued with the McLaren project, I don’t really think we could have been successful, nor McLaren either.”

“The biggest reason probably is the shape we have started wasn’t really right. So, the project needs to be started with the right shape or communication, which we could not with McLaren.”

"With McLaren, they said ‘we take care of the politics and everything, so you just focus on making engines.’ That was the role.”

“The change for myself is that after starting with Toro Rosso, Franz said ‘you should speak to F1, you should speak to the FIA.’”

“And that’s something we could have done with Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso. That was very key.”“We started from zero. That was a restart and we needed it. So, we stepped in a little bit more after starting with Red Bull.”
With hybrid being simplified for 2026, it shouldn't be as difficult as it was with Honda. Besides, they can always tap in consultants likes Ilmore for material construction. More than any of us, I am sure Red Bull has through this carefully enough to plunge into it.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QMOPM.html
Red Bull Team Principal Christian Horner is confident that the ambitious Red Bull Powertrains project is on target, with the team boss expecting the first Red Bull engine to be running on the dyno by the end of 2022.
If they have met that target, then they already have an engine running on dyno. They would have 3 years with them to get it track ready.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:18 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:56 pm
Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:22 pm
Would explain why Ferrariin the end accepted RB 2026 entry as new engine maker.
What would it have depended on? Not partnering with Honda again?
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.

Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
My guess is BP/Castrol if the Ford rumors are true. Ford and BP/Castrol have been partners for over 2 decades now in WRC and shortlived GTE project.

This would mean BP leaves Alpine/Renault, but note that there is strong industry rumor that Saudi oil will take stake in Alpine, which lends itself to Renault switching to a different fuel and lubricant partner.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:50 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:38 pm
mendis wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:18 am
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.

Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.

The challenge of being a new engine manufacturer is much more than just having previous design knowledge. You are going up against already fully staffed manufacturers that have had decades to invest in factory infrastructure and perfect their design/manufacturing process. The concessions for new manufacturers are relatively modest when compared to that accumulated investment and experience. The fact RBPT has hired employees with previous experience I view as a pre-requisite to even get a project like this off the ground, not gaming the system.
and even then, I'm rather skeptical about RBPT. Making a powerful and reliable PU is an enormous challenge. Ferrari and Renault have been doing it for years and still never quite got it right.

It took Honda several years to get it right.

Ferrari weren't neccesarily arguing from a perspective of logic. They are simply choosing to exercise their right to make things difficult for a rival. That's right out of the political toolbox.
Think the biggest difference is gonna be that the existing pu manufacturer are just tweaking the ICE and a revamping of the electronics. While new teams are building everything from the ground up. I wouldn't be surprised to see teams running split turbos in 2026, something teams had problems getting right..

I agree that Ferrari's biggest problem was with RBR getting Honda to do the electronics and still getting NEW PU Manufacturer benefits.

Cs98
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:50 pm

Ferrari weren't neccesarily arguing from a perspective of logic. They are simply choosing to exercise their right to make things difficult for a rival. That's right out of the political toolbox.
I know Ferrari are doing it out of political spite. But there are a some "fans" who argue RBPT are not a new manufacturer because they have "previous knowledge" or whatever. I think that's severely underestimating the challenge of manufacturing your own PU. There are gonna be a lot of teething problems when setting up your own operation, regardless of how experienced your employees are. And tbh, I don't even think RB has detail knowledge of the Honda engine. All the design and manufacturing took place in Japan, solely by Honda. RB was obviously involved in the of operation and maintenance of the engines. But detail knowledge about the intricacies and materials inside the engine? Doubt it. Things like that proprietary coating Honda uses on the pistons (IIRC), no way RB knows how to make that. I doubt most Honda engineers even know what's in that, they don't need to.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cs98 wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:24 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:50 pm

Ferrari weren't neccesarily arguing from a perspective of logic. They are simply choosing to exercise their right to make things difficult for a rival. That's right out of the political toolbox.
I know Ferrari are doing it out of political spite. But there are a some "fans" who argue RBPT are not a new manufacturer because they have "previous knowledge" or whatever. I think that's severely underestimating the challenge of manufacturing your own PU. There are gonna be a lot of teething problems when setting up your own operation, regardless of how experienced your employees are. And tbh, I don't even think RB has detail knowledge of the Honda engine. All the design and manufacturing took place in Japan, solely by Honda. RB was obviously involved in the of operation and maintenance of the engines. But detail knowledge about the intricacies and materials inside the engine? Doubt it. Things like that proprietary coating Honda uses on the pistons (IIRC), no way RB knows how to make that. I doubt most Honda engineers even know what's in that, they don't need to.
I agree. It's a very difficult proposition.

The only "Advantage" I see, if you can call it that is that RB have a design target. They know the performance numbers of the Honda PU in terms of the mechanical torque/power and the ERS efficiency as well as the durability of the engine in terms of the performance degradation (Which is basically nil on the Honda unit).

So they have so numbers which they know they need to better, as a minimum. How they achieve this is incredibly difficult. I have no special insight into how things are at RBPT so I don't know what their abiltity to replicate the performance of the Honda is. I can only speculate that it will be inferior to a new Honda unit. Honda's expertise and experience is multi-generational and multi-dimensional. I struggle to see how the new RBPT mill can be better than.

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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https://www.sport1.de/news/motorsport/f ... d-mercedes

An interview with Helmut Marko in German. A funny quote translated with DeepL:

Formula 1: Verstappen has private plane converted

SPORT1: How often did you have contact with your drivers Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez?

Marko: Regularly. As I said, we were together for a long time in Japan at the beginning of December. They had a lot of fun together. After that, they talked on the phone again and again.

SPORT1: Verstappen recently got extremely upset because, as a passionate simracer, he only missed out on victory in the virtual 24 Hours of Le Mans because there were problems with the connection. Can we assume that this issue is now a thing of the past and that he will now only concentrate on real racing in order to claim his third consecutive world championship title?

Marko: The opposite is the case. He has even had his private plane converted so that he can drive simulators in the air in the future. But that's a good thing, too, because Max needs this distraction. At any rate, it didn't do him any harm during his two titles.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The Power of Dreams!

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That’s mint! Imagine a few of the drivers together and having a SIM race before they get to the actual track

Venturiation
Venturiation
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Redbull will surprise everyone with their evolution no one can catch them

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Venturiation wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:25 pm
Redbull will surprise everyone with their evolution no one can catch them
I guess they have had 5-6months development since they didn’t bring any in late end of the season

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-do ... bull-setup
Verstappen does not want Ricciardo to prepare Red Bull car setup

"I also don't want a test driver to take over the simulator sessions, like other teams do. I want to do it myself, because everyone has their own driving style."
Barely any content but hey-ho

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Makes sense really.

Doing it yourself you realise the minor tweaks and the effects they have. So will know the progression of the setup.