2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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avantman wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:42 pm
Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers. Sir Hamilton being the prime example of that.
I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
🤭 wrote:
“Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers” 😂

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Verstappen said in the press conference that they did their strategy with a goal of breaking the 1000 laps led mark.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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TNTHead wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:09 pm
A rule of tumb to evaluate a cars performance is also to look at the win rate of the second driver: based on that the RB19 isn't, i haven't checked but there were less 1-2 finishes than in the golden years of Mercedes. It says also much about VER being a superb driver.
:lol:

CHT
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Class act even with the donut

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DChemTech
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 pm
avantman wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:42 pm
Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers. Sir Hamilton being the prime example of that.
I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
But he's right (and I say that as an RB supporter).
All you can say by looking at the statistics is that it was the best car/driver/team combination ever. Just by looking at the performance of Car #1 you can say nothing about Max, the car, or the team in isolation.
Theoretically, a team could build the best car ever and never be recognized as such if they have two completely incompetent drivers. A driver could be the biggest talent ever, but never be recognized as such because they're in a bad car (more likely to happen). Even with an excellent car and driver, if the team has terrible strategists, it may still yield an average season.

To distinguish car from driver from team, one needs to look deeper than superficial statistics. Things like 2nd driver performance/teammate gap, qualifying and race gap, and reasons why results were as they were.
Based on that, my opinion is that the RB19 is an excellent car, one of the best ever, but not necessarily the very best (others have had more consistent 1-2 finishes and a larger gap in qualifying/race). Similarly, you can judge that Max had an amazing season (consistency, teammate gap both in time and points/finish positions), but it requires a more broad cross-season view to judge how he ranks on the goat-ladder.
Last edited by DChemTech on Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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When Max was doing an interview with ViaPlay Alonso passed by and Max took over the microphone. :D

The Power of Dreams!

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:04 am
cheeRS wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 pm
avantman wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:42 pm
Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers. Sir Hamilton being the prime example of that.
I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
But he's right (and I say that as an RB supporter).
All you can say by looking at the statistics is that it was the best car/driver/team combination ever. Just by looking at the performance of Car #1 you can say nothing about Max, the car, or the team in isolation.
Theoretically, a team could build the best car ever and never be recognized as such if they have two completely incompetent drivers. A driver could be the biggest talent ever, but never be recognized as such because they're in a bad car (more likely to happen). Even with an excellent car and driver, if the team has terrible strategists, it may still yield an average season.

To distinguish car from driver from team, one needs to look deeper than superficial statistics. Things like 2nd driver performance/teammate gap, qualifying and race gap, and reasons why results were as they were.
Based on that, my opinion is that the RB19 is an excellent car, one of the best ever, but not necessarily the very best (others have had more consistent 1-2 finishes and a larger gap in qualifying/race). Similarly, you can judge that Max had an amazing season (consistency, teammate gap both in time and points/finish positions), but it requires a more broad cross-season view to judge how he ranks on the goat-ladder.
We can just consider that Perez scored more points with the rb18 (305) than the rb19 (285) despite fewer dnfs this year and 3 more sprints. And the analysis using 1-2s etc falls apart - the rb18 was obviously nowhere near as good as the rb19 has been and yet Perez's stats/performance does not reflect that at all

Xyz22
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:03 am
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:04 am
cheeRS wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 pm


I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
But he's right (and I say that as an RB supporter).
All you can say by looking at the statistics is that it was the best car/driver/team combination ever. Just by looking at the performance of Car #1 you can say nothing about Max, the car, or the team in isolation.
Theoretically, a team could build the best car ever and never be recognized as such if they have two completely incompetent drivers. A driver could be the biggest talent ever, but never be recognized as such because they're in a bad car (more likely to happen). Even with an excellent car and driver, if the team has terrible strategists, it may still yield an average season.

To distinguish car from driver from team, one needs to look deeper than superficial statistics. Things like 2nd driver performance/teammate gap, qualifying and race gap, and reasons why results were as they were.
Based on that, my opinion is that the RB19 is an excellent car, one of the best ever, but not necessarily the very best (others have had more consistent 1-2 finishes and a larger gap in qualifying/race). Similarly, you can judge that Max had an amazing season (consistency, teammate gap both in time and points/finish positions), but it requires a more broad cross-season view to judge how he ranks on the goat-ladder.
We can just consider that Perez scored more points with the rb18 (305) than the rb19 (285) despite fewer dnfs this year and 3 more sprints. And the analysis using 1-2s etc falls apart - the rb18 was obviously nowhere near as good as the rb19 has been and yet Perez's stats/performance does not reflect that at all
Perez had one of the worst seasons i've ever seen in modern Formula 1 (minus absolutely awful paying drivers/rookies)

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Max Verstappen gets a new trainer

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Erik van Haren

AMSTERDAM - Max Verstappen will get a new personal trainer next year, in his tenth Formula 1 season. His current performance coach Bradley Scanes has previously told Red Bull Racing that he will stop his role at Verstappen's side after this season.

The British physio has been associated with Verstappen since the beginning of 2020 and accompanied him at every race. Almost every week they also worked in Monaco on the physical condition of the now three-time world champion. The closing race of this season in Abu Dhabi was Scanes' last race alongside Verstappen. They worked together for four seasons, during which Verstappen won no fewer than 46 races.

Before 2020, Verstappen worked in Formula 1 with Jake Aliker. Who the Limburger will work with from next season will be known later. Verstappen still has the necessary (PR) obligations in December and will start preparing for a new, long season with 24 races around mid-January.
The Power of Dreams!

avantman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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RB19 is objectively better than the RB18, because it was faster on most tracks and types of corners and much more reliable - two qualities that make a car good, or better than others.
RB19 was the best car of 2023, but to say it was the best car ever based on the fact red bull achieved better win rate this year, largely because rivals were nowhere and extremely inconsistent all year, this is just nonsense. RB19 wasn't even the fastest car in low speed corners for most of the year, on the kerbs. Mclaren were often faster in high speed corners for large part of the year. This car hasn't had vast and comprehensive advantage over the rivals in all areas. The size of advantage itself was a lot smaller compared to advantage several truly dominant cars had before. The weak points of RB19 just weren't as weak as of all of their rivals. and they had the best, fastest and the most consistent driver by far. and he became that kind of driver not in 2023 due to the car, he's shown that level since 2019 week in week out.

So W11 was better than RB19 without any doubts.Not only it was most technologically advanced car ever, it was also extremely drivable and compliant car. If such driver as Russell who is very good but was never considered to be New Schumacher or Senna could jump in the car and dominate the grand prix with ease (not even testing a car in the winter, and barely fitting inside the cockpit), not even pushing (study Russell' remarks after Sakhir, also what he said about the car). SO, it's easy to show it was better than RB19. But was it also more competitive, did it have bigger pace advantage over the rivals? Yes, It was just way superior car than all the competitors by any metric, apart from stats tarnished by under performing team( that makes several costly mistake each year) and the drivers, that are not near as good and consistent as Verstappen.
Mercedes missed on few race wins not because their car wasn't good enough obviously, it had nothing to do with car's performance. That car had no weak points, it was better than any other car literally everywhere, in all types of corners, on the straights, on the tires, it was superior in everything. Only thing W11 lacked compared to RB19 was such driver as Verstappen and of course the team that doesn't miss red signals on the pit entry.

GCXX
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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avantman wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:42 am
RB19 is objectively better than the RB18, because it was faster on most tracks and types of corners and much more reliable - two qualities that make a car good, or better than others.
RB19 was the best car of 2023, but to say it was the best car ever based on the fact red bull achieved better win rate this year, largely because rivals were nowhere and extremely inconsistent all year, this is just nonsense. RB19 wasn't even the fastest car in low speed corners for most of the year, on the kerbs. Mclaren were often faster in high speed corners for large part of the year. This car hasn't had vast and comprehensive advantage over the rivals in all areas. The size of advantage itself was a lot smaller compared to advantage several truly dominant cars had before. The weak points of RB19 just weren't as weak as of all of their rivals. and they had the best, fastest and the most consistent driver by far. and he became that kind of driver not in 2023 due to the car, he's shown that level since 2019 week in week out.

So W11 was better than RB19 without any doubts.Not only it was most technologically advanced car ever, it was also extremely drivable and compliant car. If such driver as Russell who is very good but was never considered to be New Schumacher or Senna could jump in the car and dominate the grand prix with ease (not even testing a car in the winter, and barely fitting inside the cockpit), not even pushing (study Russell' remarks after Sakhir, also what he said about the car). SO, it's easy to show it was better than RB19. But was it also more competitive, did it have bigger pace advantage over the rivals? Yes, It was just way superior car than all the competitors by any metric, apart from stats tarnished by under performing team( that makes several costly mistake each year) and the drivers, that are not near as good and consistent as Verstappen.
Mercedes missed on few race wins not because their car wasn't good enough obviously, it had nothing to do with car's performance. That car had no weak points, it was better than any other car literally everywhere, in all types of corners, on the straights, on the tires, it was superior in everything. Only thing W11 lacked compared to RB19 was such driver as Verstappen and of course the team that doesn't miss red signals on the pit entry.
How can you compare cars from two different generations?
According to your logic even the RB16b is a better car than the RB19 because of the better cornering speed and laptime

Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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GCXX wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:04 am
avantman wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:42 am
RB19 is objectively better than the RB18, because it was faster on most tracks and types of corners and much more reliable - two qualities that make a car good, or better than others.
RB19 was the best car of 2023, but to say it was the best car ever based on the fact red bull achieved better win rate this year, largely because rivals were nowhere and extremely inconsistent all year, this is just nonsense. RB19 wasn't even the fastest car in low speed corners for most of the year, on the kerbs. Mclaren were often faster in high speed corners for large part of the year. This car hasn't had vast and comprehensive advantage over the rivals in all areas. The size of advantage itself was a lot smaller compared to advantage several truly dominant cars had before. The weak points of RB19 just weren't as weak as of all of their rivals. and they had the best, fastest and the most consistent driver by far. and he became that kind of driver not in 2023 due to the car, he's shown that level since 2019 week in week out.

So W11 was better than RB19 without any doubts.Not only it was most technologically advanced car ever, it was also extremely drivable and compliant car. If such driver as Russell who is very good but was never considered to be New Schumacher or Senna could jump in the car and dominate the grand prix with ease (not even testing a car in the winter, and barely fitting inside the cockpit), not even pushing (study Russell' remarks after Sakhir, also what he said about the car). SO, it's easy to show it was better than RB19. But was it also more competitive, did it have bigger pace advantage over the rivals? Yes, It was just way superior car than all the competitors by any metric, apart from stats tarnished by under performing team( that makes several costly mistake each year) and the drivers, that are not near as good and consistent as Verstappen.
Mercedes missed on few race wins not because their car wasn't good enough obviously, it had nothing to do with car's performance. That car had no weak points, it was better than any other car literally everywhere, in all types of corners, on the straights, on the tires, it was superior in everything. Only thing W11 lacked compared to RB19 was such driver as Verstappen and of course the team that doesn't miss red signals on the pit entry.
How can you compare cars from two different generations?
According to your logic even the RB16b is a better car than the RB19 because of the better cornering speed and laptime
That's because it's not a comparison between RB19 and W11, but their relative performance WITHIN their own season.

I see it the same as avantman, there's cars WITHIN their own season with hugely more dominant performance. The McLaren 15/16 for wins had literally multiple seconds advantage in qualifying performance. This RB 19 has nothing of that magnitude compared to the cars it's raced against. Highly competent and brilliantly applied, but with slim absolute pace advantage when tanks are dry and tyres sticky / brand new.

RB 19 is a very, very subtle car in its effectiveness.

avantman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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GCXX wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:04 am
How can you compare cars from two different generations?
When people say RB19 is the best car ever - I think it's obviously them who make that comparison. It wasn't my intention for the reason both you and I mentioned. But if some still want to compare and find out which car was 'the best car ever', there is no other way than comparing ultimate performance, taking reliability into account too, because fast car cannot be great, if it breaks down all the time.
So, cornering speed and overall speed over a lap, in race trim, reliability is more than reliable metric to say which car is better, especially when the difference is big and obvious, not couple of tenths which could come from a driver.
Yeah, you are right, of course even RB16B was better than RB19. It wasn't near as competitive though, let alone successful statistically.

Statistics might be very misleading very often.
How can people confuse concepts of 'the best' and 'the most successful' statistically is frankly beyond me. We've seen both cars achieving more than they arguably deserved based on raw performance, and great, fast and super competitive cars wasted by underperforming drivers and teams making operational mistakes.

Imagine Aston didnt make that mistake on tires choice in Monaco. That's minus one race win for RB19. Imagine if Max and Checo came into each other once, like Mercedes drivers did in 2014 and 2016 to give up on another dominant victory. That's minus another race win. Imagine if Red bull had a bad final pitstop say in Qatar, and Piastri being very close behind won it. Could that have happened? easily. Imagine Max went wide and crashed in wet Zandvoort driving on slicks? That's minus another win. Would that say something about technical advantage of RB19 over its rivals? No, nothing. If red bull won 17 or 18 out of 22 races this year, instead of 21, would people talk about RB19 as the most dominant (let alone best) car ever? I think you know the answer and hopefully you finally understand what I meant from the beginning. The whole team and its lead driver performed way above anything we've seen in F1 ever before. That made their results look so dominant, even if the technical advantage they enjoyed wasn't near as vast and comprehensive as it looks judging by race results and Championship points.
Last edited by avantman on Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Farnborough
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I see it the same as you avantman...that quote is from GCXX poster for reference.