2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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avantman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:55 pm
I see it the same as you avantman...that quote is from GCXX poster for reference.
Sorry, misquoted, I'll edit.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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avantman wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:29 am
The whole team and its lead driver performed way above anything we've seen in F1 ever before. That made their results look so dominant, even if the technical advantage they enjoyed wasn't near as vast and comprehensive as it looks judging by race results and Championship points.
That's the part that should be said loudly. I have never seen a season where a driver, folks that ensure the reliability of the components (barring Saudi qualifying), the pit crew (engineers, mechanics) and the strategy team have been exceptionally consistent in their respective jobs. No signs of fatigue from anyone. More than the car having performance advantage, it's the cumulative sum of all parts that is much larger than the individual elements.

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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:04 am
cheeRS wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 pm
avantman wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:42 pm
Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers. Sir Hamilton being the prime example of that.
I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
But he's right (and I say that as an RB supporter).
All you can say by looking at the statistics is that it was the best car/driver/team combination ever. Just by looking at the performance of Car #1 you can say nothing about Max, the car, or the team in isolation.
Theoretically, a team could build the best car ever and never be recognized as such if they have two completely incompetent drivers. A driver could be the biggest talent ever, but never be recognized as such because they're in a bad car (more likely to happen). Even with an excellent car and driver, if the team has terrible strategists, it may still yield an average season.

To distinguish car from driver from team, one needs to look deeper than superficial statistics. Things like 2nd driver performance/teammate gap, qualifying and race gap, and reasons why results were as they were.
Based on that, my opinion is that the RB19 is an excellent car, one of the best ever, but not necessarily the very best (others have had more consistent 1-2 finishes and a larger gap in qualifying/race). Similarly, you can judge that Max had an amazing season (consistency, teammate gap both in time and points/finish positions), but it requires a more broad cross-season view to judge how he ranks on the goat-ladder.
Lots of opinion there. If you read exactly what I wrote, and carefully, you'll see that it's unassailable.

If you want opinion instead, here's my hot take: there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Max's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Max's greatness. Early this season the theme was that the W11/Merc years were more dominant, but now at season's end that was proven to be wrong. With the Mercedes/Lewis WDCs, Max fans said was all about the car. But if you say that now about 2022-2023 and Max, supporters get uneasy defensive, and start finding excuses or polarizing opinions. The truth is that's just the way Formula 1 is... it can never and will never be about just the car's dominance or just the driver's talent/skill... and to try to argue for one or the other is simply an opinion. This leads back to my earlier statement about the RB19 being the most dominant car in F1 history and Max being the most dominant driver over a season in F1 history. If you disagree, it's due to an ulterior motive or simply a biased opinion.
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“Being the 'most successful statistically' has nothing to do with being the 'best'. neither when it comes to the cars, nor when it comes to the drivers” 😂

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jake Dennis and Perez will do the test at Abu Dhabi tomorrow. Not sure why max isn't driving

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:11 pm
Jake Dennis and Perez will do the test at Abu Dhabi tomorrow. Not sure why max isn't driving
.
Max has to go to Japan tomorrow I read that somewhere. (I believe Vermeulen said it)
They all are having a party right now in Dubai. His jet went this morning from Abu Dhabi to Dubai.
Maybe he is flying over night to Tokio so he can sleep on the plane.
The Power of Dreams!

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:41 pm
organic wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:11 pm
Jake Dennis and Perez will do the test at Abu Dhabi tomorrow. Not sure why max isn't driving
.
Max has to go to Japan tomorrow I read that somewhere. (I believe Vermeulen said it)
They all are having a party right now in Dubai. His jet went this morning from Abu Dhabi to Dubai.
Maybe he is flying over night to Tokio so he can sleep on the plane.
I heard him say that himself in the viaplay post race show so you are correct.

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:02 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:04 am
cheeRS wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 pm


I’m putting your quote in my signature as it is very probably the most imbecilic idea I’ve read in all my years here.

The RB19 is the best and most dominant car in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Verstappen was the best and most dominant driver over a season in all of Formula 1 history, by any metric or reasonable subjective measure.

Anyone that would disagree is either biased or getting lost in the weeds. It’s clearly black and white - and that’s appropriate here.
But he's right (and I say that as an RB supporter).
All you can say by looking at the statistics is that it was the best car/driver/team combination ever. Just by looking at the performance of Car #1 you can say nothing about Max, the car, or the team in isolation.
Theoretically, a team could build the best car ever and never be recognized as such if they have two completely incompetent drivers. A driver could be the biggest talent ever, but never be recognized as such because they're in a bad car (more likely to happen). Even with an excellent car and driver, if the team has terrible strategists, it may still yield an average season.

To distinguish car from driver from team, one needs to look deeper than superficial statistics. Things like 2nd driver performance/teammate gap, qualifying and race gap, and reasons why results were as they were.
Based on that, my opinion is that the RB19 is an excellent car, one of the best ever, but not necessarily the very best (others have had more consistent 1-2 finishes and a larger gap in qualifying/race). Similarly, you can judge that Max had an amazing season (consistency, teammate gap both in time and points/finish positions), but it requires a more broad cross-season view to judge how he ranks on the goat-ladder.
Lots of opinion there. If you read exactly what I wrote, and carefully, you'll see that it's unassailable.

If you want opinion instead, here's my hot take: there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Max's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Max's greatness. Early this season the theme was that the W11/Merc years were more dominant, but now at season's end that was proven to be wrong. With the Mercedes/Lewis WDCs, Max fans said was all about the car. But if you say that now about 2022-2023 and Max, supporters get uneasy defensive, and start finding excuses or polarizing opinions. The truth is that's just the way Formula 1 is... it can never and will never be about just the car's dominance or just the driver's talent/skill... and to try to argue for one or the other is simply an opinion. This leads back to my earlier statement about the RB19 being the most dominant car in F1 history and Max being the most dominant driver over a season in F1 history. If you disagree, it's due to an ulterior motive or simply a biased opinion.
Read your piece back,to me it just screams in my face ”I am superior, you all max fans are nitwits”. Does that make your points stronger or weaker, what do you think?

Mercedes had an almost unlimited budget in those years. 100% Daimler owned and they spent whatever was needed. They also had a party mode (60-80 hp extra) that they could engage in every qualy and in every part of the race where an attack needed to be fended off, an undercut prevented, an undercut needed to be made etc. And not by one car alone. The wing man who also qualified with that engine mode was also there to fend off any attack. And still Max won races every year he had a car that was in the top 3.

You see that as proof those cars weren’t dominant, me, nitwit Max fans who is by default wrong sees something else.

Now we have even spending and no more party mode and Max has been sweeping the leaderboard ever since. Is that pure skill, no of course not, he clearly has the best car now, but it is the same Max that won races against those odds that is now winning just about everything. In 22 he started out with the car crapping out twice in 3 races and an certainly equal Ferrari that first half season and still he won by a landslide and this year he broke every record that exists. Some 70 years old.

I would like to see what Max would have done with that party mode by the way.

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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RBR had a great party yesterday in Dubai with a amazing drone show and delicious RB19 cake!



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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Verstappen poaches new personal trainer from Sainz

Red Bull has found a new personal trainer for Max Verstappen in Rupert Manwaring following the departure of Bradley Scanes.

Max Verstappen has poached Carlos Sainz's personal trainer Rupert Manwaring ahead of the 2024 Formula 1 season.

Manwaring has worked with Sainz since his F1 debut in 2015, but after eight seasons at the side of the Spaniard has elected to move to Red Bull to replace the departing Bradley Scanes.

Manwaring works with Hintsa Performance, the performance coaching company launched by the late Dr Aki Hinsta, who worked with Lewis Hamilton and Mika Hakkinen. He died in 2016 after battling cancer.

In a twist of fate, Verstappen's father Jos also worked with Manwaring's own father, also called Rupert. during his racing career.

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TFSA
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:02 pm
Lots of opinion there. If you read exactly what I wrote, and carefully, you'll see that it's unassailable.
It really isn't, and you declaring it so doesn't make it any more true.

As for your hot take: There's always rabid fans who, without reservation, will put their own favorite driver on a pedestal, or try to put another driver (their favorite drivers rival, like Hamilton for Max fans) down. Generalizing an entire fanbase ("Max fans" or "Red Bull fans") based on that, like you do, is indeed a hot take, because it's ridiculous. Plenty of Max fans are capable of recognizing that Lewis was - and still is - an incredibly strong driver, and plenty of Lewis fans recognize the same about Max.

Someone said recently (i can't remember where) that F1 will always be 85% car (team performance included), and 15% driver. And i agree with that. You'll get nowhere in a slow or unreliable car, no matter if your name is Lewis or Max.

Regarding the car itself:
We've had plenty of races this year that Max won, which was just won on the edge (not counting late safety cars or Red Flags) or with a reasonable margin to the competitors. Austin (possible brake issue), Vegas (he was just slightly faster than Leclerc). Singapore was a disaster. In Spa, the car was nowhere as strong as it was in 2022. Canada, Alonso was 10 seconds behind, Hamilton 14. Monza, Ferrari did well to hold Max off, but tire deg eventually got them. Qatar, Piastri was pretty much just as fast in the McLaren and managed to win the sprint and get P2 in the race.

And then we've had Perez, who has had an awful season in the car, and while he just managed to get P2, it was only because we've had 4 other teams (AM, Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren) took turns taking points off each other.

The cars qualifying performance hasn't been world class, and Red Bull, in fact, only managed a single front row lockout this year in Bahrain. Compare that to say, 2019 (random year from Mercedes era i just picked), where Mercedes, with 1 less race, had 8 front row lockouts. Bottas was a consistent qualifier, but based on stats, I'd say the W10 was a stronger qualifying car.
In addition, Bottas managed to win 4 races with the car and score 7 P2's, while Perez only managed 2 wins and 4 P2's in the RB19. And while Bottas was a very consistent qualifier, he's not really that much better than Perez in every other aspect (less crash prone perhaps).

So at the end of the day, I'd say the RB19s main strength wasn't that it was particularly dominant, but that it was consistent, and all the competitors wasn't. It worked well on pretty much every single track apart from Singapore, and the Red Bull team itself was on point for most races in regards to strategy, setup and pit stops and generally never had any major problems. And the rest is down to Max extracting maximum pace out of the car, something that Perez couldn't apart from Baku.
Last edited by TFSA on Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:52 am, edited 4 times in total.

DChemTech
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:02 pm
If you want opinion instead, here's my hot take: there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Max's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Max's greatness.
I would argue the opposite; there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Lewis's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Lewis's greatness. With Max's WDCs, Lewis fans say it is all about the car. But if you say that now about 2014-2020 and Lewis, supporters get uneasy defensive, and start finding excuses or polarizing opinions. As TFSA just mentioned, it's an attitude to be found in 'both camps'

A more defendable narrative is that both Max and Lewis are excellent drivers, that had the opportunity to drive excellent cars, and delivered on them. But that is not what you argue - you try to go further and assert that the notion that this was statistically the best season ever means that this was the most dominant car ever. That is simply not true, as I have argued before. It only shows this was the most dominant car/driver/team combination, it does not assert the dominance of any of those factors in isolation. I have also noted why that is the case (as have others). That is by no means being overtly defensive of Max, nor is it downplaying Lewis. It is solely a statement against trying to use statistics to assert things that do not unequivocally follow from them.
Last edited by DChemTech on Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SiLo
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:48 am
cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:02 pm
If you want opinion instead, here's my hot take: there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Max's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Max's greatness.
I would argue the opposite; there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Lewis's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Lewis's greatness. With Max's WDCs, Lewis fans say it is all about the car. But if you say that now about 2014-2020 and Lewis, supporters get uneasy defensive, and start finding excuses or polarizing opinions. As TFSA just mentioned, it's an attitude to be found in 'both camps'

A more defendable narrative is that both Max and Lewis are excellent drivers, that had the opportunity to drive excellent cars, and delivered on them. But that is what you argue - you try to go further and assert that the notion that this was statistically the best season ever means that this was the most dominant car ever. That is simply not true, as I have argued before. It only shows this was the most dominant car/driver/team combination, it does not assert the dominance of any of those factors in isolation. I have also noted why that is the case (as have others). That is by no means being overtly defensive of Max, nor is it downplaying Lewis. It is solely a statement against trying to use statistics to assert things that do not unequivocally follow from them.
This type of debate rages on in every single sport, it's nothing new. It almost always boils down to someone not liking what someone else said, doesn't matter if its facts or opinions. It's pretty much pointless to get involved.
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101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:39 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:48 am
cheeRS wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:02 pm
If you want opinion instead, here's my hot take: there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Max's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Max's greatness.
I would argue the opposite; there is a general undercurrent of 'fear' (uneasiness) among Lewis's supporters that causes them to be overly defensive if anything is said that might challenge or question Lewis's greatness. With Max's WDCs, Lewis fans say it is all about the car. But if you say that now about 2014-2020 and Lewis, supporters get uneasy defensive, and start finding excuses or polarizing opinions. As TFSA just mentioned, it's an attitude to be found in 'both camps'

A more defendable narrative is that both Max and Lewis are excellent drivers, that had the opportunity to drive excellent cars, and delivered on them. But that is what you argue - you try to go further and assert that the notion that this was statistically the best season ever means that this was the most dominant car ever. That is simply not true, as I have argued before. It only shows this was the most dominant car/driver/team combination, it does not assert the dominance of any of those factors in isolation. I have also noted why that is the case (as have others). That is by no means being overtly defensive of Max, nor is it downplaying Lewis. It is solely a statement against trying to use statistics to assert things that do not unequivocally follow from them.
This type of debate rages on in every single sport, it's nothing new. It almost always boils down to someone not liking what someone else said, doesn't matter if its facts or opinions. It's pretty much pointless to get involved.
Agreed on the pointlessness of it. However still an excellent post if I may say so!