2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ValeVida46]

Wolff with a brief after Monaco and some words on the updates. Which should...should, give some critics a reasonable expectation of what can be expected.

The car felt together, which is important, but it’s still a bit nasty on the rear. So that's something which we need to dial out of the car for the next few races. But we have a new baseline and that's important to say: ‘Okay, this is what we have now.' We've taken questions off the table where we weren't sure of, be it the front suspension or the extravaganza of our bodywork. So, let's work from here. We're good at grinding away and the work that was done in the factories to bring that update here to Monaco from our team, it was really a big effort.
I think Barcelona is not enough. I think we need to collect data. That's why we put it also here in Monaco, and to collect further analysis which we will do in Barcelona. The next one, Montreal, is a little bit of an outlier again.
But over the next races hopefully we can really increase the performance of the car. But it's not going to suddenly be right there.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10475498/

[AR3-GP]

Wolff with a brief after Monaco and some words on the updates. Which should...should, give some critics a reasonable expectation of what can be expected.

The car felt together, which is important, but it’s still a bit nasty on the rear. So that's something which we need to dial out of the car for the next few races. But we have a new baseline and that's important to say: ‘Okay, this is what we have now.' We've taken questions off the table where we weren't sure of, be it the front suspension or the extravaganza of our bodywork. So, let's work from here. We're good at grinding away and the work that was done in the factories to bring that update here to Monaco from our team, it was really a big effort.
I think Barcelona is not enough. I think we need to collect data. That's why we put it also here in Monaco, and to collect further analysis which we will do in Barcelona. The next one, Montreal, is a little bit of an outlier again.
But over the next races hopefully we can really increase the performance of the car. But it's not going to suddenly be right there.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10475498/

This (which was reported since Saturday on a different news site) along with Hamilton's interviews are why I said I was unsure about the upgrade. Time will tell.

It's also why I pointed out that there was some PR management going on. How can Toto on another day say the car does not throw any surprises or negative behaviours

"But at least we haven't seen any behaviour of the car that would have been deemed as really negative."

Asked if the car was giving the drivers the confidence they require, he said: "I've never heard a driver saying in Monaco that feels good!

"I think it's always on the knife's edge. You've seen that with [Carlos] Sainz. And therefore not lots of great praise, but definitely going in the right direction."

It's all very cagey from both Wolff and Hamilton. The next day he says the car still has a "nasty rear".

All these mixed signals. They don't know if it's the track or the car at the moment but they are not going to say the upgrade didn't increase the driver's confidence, in spite of the "nasty rear".

[ValeVida46]

You're expecting Barcelona levels of feedback from Wolff and Hamilton....at Monaco.
Hamilton, Russell, Wolff and Shovlin all said the same thing, they won't know how well the upgrades work until they can get to a traditional race track. This was said repeatedly throughout the weekend and the lead up to the weekend as they knew Monaco would not be a good place to correlate the update very well. Imola's cancellation will do that to your preparation.
The problem really isn't what they're saying. The problem lies with unrealistic expectations and a seeming inability to treat this team as you would any other.

[AR3-GP]

You're expecting Barcelona levels of feedback from Wolff and Hamilton....at Monaco.
Hamilton, Russell, Wolff and Shovlin all said the same thing, they won't know how well the upgrades work until they can get to a traditional race track. This was said repeatedly throughout the weekend and the lead up to the weekend as they knew Monaco would not be a good place to correlate the update very well. Imola's cancellation will do that to your preparation.
The problem really isn't what they're saying. The problem lies with unrealistic expectations and a seeming inability to treat this team as you would any other.

A driver always knows in their gut just like Hamilton knew in the shakedowns in '22 and '23.

I never said I expect Mercedes to be 0.5 second faster or anything like that. There's no unrealistic expectation. The only thing I expected was a fundamental improvement in the handling and I said I was skeptical after Monaco based on mixed signals being cast by Wolff and Hamilton. Time will tell.

[ValeVida46]

A driver always knows in their gut just like they knew in Silverstone.

Because Silverstone is so similar to Monaco?
They're not even remotely close when comparing the sort of feedback to ascertain whether an update has worked or needs tuning. But here we are with the disingenuous comparison...

[AR3-GP]

A driver always knows in their gut just like they knew in Silverstone.

Because Silverstone is so similar to Monaco?
They're not even remotely close when comparing the sort of feedback to ascertain whether an update has worked or needs tuning. But here we are with the disingenuous comparison...

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

[ValeVida46]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

You couldn't pick a worse track to validate updates. The target was Imola and the team were compromised by the cancellation. Instead of taking any positives in being the 2nd highest scoring team, Russell throwing a podium away(but other teams get the driver excuse, not Mercedes) Or Wolff and Hamilton saying that given the limited scope of the Track to validate the updates they have reasons to be optimistic.

They're also running a compromised rear wing, itself a product of the budget cap. Which makes a "nasty rear end" comment plausible and reasonable until they can dial into a track that will give feedback that's reliable and conducive to given the team a clearer idea of what is needed to move forward from their package. So yes, extremely unrealistic to get a clear picture from a track that isn't conducive to giving clear pictures.

Instead, your expectations being projected onto Wolff or any team member comment, gets put through a negative prism, repeatedly with jibes along the lines of "mixed signals", "PR management" and "cagey" "they don't know if it's the track or the car". And that's just this page...
And if time will tell, why can't you give them time? It really is strange and not conducive to constructive dialogue to repeatedly stick the boot in ad nauseum. Other team threads escape your repeated criticisms, so I'm sure it's possible that can be reflected here?

[AR3-GP]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

You couldn't pick a worse track to validate updates. The target was Imola and the team were compromised by the cancellation. Instead of taking any positives in being the 2nd highest scoring team, Russell throwing a podium away(but other teams get the driver excuse, not Mercedes) Or Wolff and Hamilton saying that given the limited scope of the Track to validate the updates they have reasons to be optimistic.

They're also running a compromised rear wing, itself a product of the budget cap. Which makes a "nasty rear end" comment plausible and reasonable until they can dial into a track that will give feedback that's reliable and conducive to given the team a clearer idea of what is needed to move forward from their package. So yes, extremely unrealistic to get a clear picture from a track that isn't conducive to giving clear pictures.

Instead, your expectations being projected onto Wolff or any team member comment, gets put through a negative prism, repeatedly with jibes along the lines of "mixed signals", "PR management" and "cagey" "they don't know if it's the track or the car". And that's just this page...
And if time will tell, why can't you give them time? It really is strange and not conducive to constructive dialogue to repeatedly stick the boot in ad nauseum. Other team threads escape your repeated criticisms, so I'm sure it's possible that can be reflected here?

It's an opinion.

[purestpurist]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

Wouldn't a driver as experienced as Hamilton (even Russell has 4 seasons under his belt) be able to compare it to how previous cars felt around Monaco? However, I generally expect the truth of Mercedes' performance to be better than they claim, they've always downplayed their strength in the media.. When they were dominant they always played up their rivals, and when they were third best out of ten they acted like they were at the bottom (I would do the same thing).

[ValeVida46]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

Wouldn't a driver as experienced as Hamilton (even Russell has 4 seasons under his belt) be able to compare it to how previous cars felt around Monaco? However, I generally expect the truth of Mercedes' performance to be better than they claim, they've always downplayed their strength in the media.. When they were dominant they always played up their rivals, and when they were third best out of ten they acted like they were at the bottom (I would do the same thing).

Driver feedback isn't the limiting factor when someone is trying to compare Monaco to Silverstone as an evaluation venue. It's the ability to push the car through high speed corners and transitions on a more uniform and predictable track surface that will relay driver feedback data reliably.
For instance, if an update is tried for the first time in Silverstone, the feedback potential will be far greater than if it's used for the first time at a place like Monaco.
There is good reason why teams shake down and used to test at places like Silverstone, and why Barcelona is used as a test venue, and not street tracks(aside from logistical considerations).

Goes without saying really but it seems as though some people think they really are equally comparative technically.

[rijtuig]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

You couldn't pick a worse track to validate updates. The target was Imola and the team were compromised by the cancellation. Instead of taking any positives in being the 2nd highest scoring team, Russell throwing a podium away(but other teams get the driver excuse, not Mercedes) Or Wolff and Hamilton saying that given the limited scope of the Track to validate the updates they have reasons to be optimistic.

They're also running a compromised rear wing, itself a product of the budget cap. Which makes a "nasty rear end" comment plausible and reasonable until they can dial into a track that will give feedback that's reliable and conducive to given the team a clearer idea of what is needed to move forward from their package. So yes, extremely unrealistic to get a clear picture from a track that isn't conducive to giving clear pictures.

Instead, your expectations being projected onto Wolff or any team member comment, gets put through a negative prism, repeatedly with jibes along the lines of "mixed signals", "PR management" and "cagey" "they don't know if it's the track or the car". And that's just this page...
And if time will tell, why can't you give them time? It really is strange and not conducive to constructive dialogue to repeatedly stick the boot in ad nauseum. Other team threads escape your repeated criticisms, so I'm sure it's possible that can be reflected here?

Boom.

[Hammerfist]

I didn't mention Silverstone to say it's the same circuit as Monaco. I mentioned it because it was the first time that Hamilton drove the car.

How does driving an updated car for the first time at Silverstone give the same indication as driving an updated car in Monaco? The comparison is as disingenuous as it gets.

Wouldn't a driver as experienced as Hamilton (even Russell has 4 seasons under his belt) be able to compare it to how previous cars felt around Monaco? However, I generally expect the truth of Mercedes' performance to be better than they claim, they've always downplayed their strength in the media.. When they were dominant they always played up their rivals, and when they were third best out of ten they acted like they were at the bottom (I would do the same thing).

The thing about Hamilton’s feedback is that I sometimes feel he is comparing this generation of car to the last. I mean even the rb19 wouldn’t stand a chance against a w12 or w11. So I hope he isn’t expecting too much in that regard. He mentioned last year how his w12 felt smooth and had mind boggling grip. You ain’t going to get that with these ground effect cars, which are rubbish in comparison.

[Chuckjr]

You're expecting Barcelona levels of feedback from Wolff and Hamilton....at Monaco.
Hamilton, Russell, Wolff and Shovlin all said the same thing, they won't know how well the upgrades work until they can get to a traditional race track. This was said repeatedly throughout the weekend and the lead up to the weekend as they knew Monaco would not be a good place to correlate the update very well. Imola's cancellation will do that to your preparation.
The problem really isn't what they're saying. The problem lies with unrealistic expectations and a seeming inability to treat this team as you would any other.

A driver always knows in their gut just like Hamilton knew in the shakedowns in '22 and '23.

I never said I expect Mercedes to be 0.5 second faster or anything like that. There's no unrealistic expectation. The only thing I expected was a fundamental improvement in the handling and I said I was skeptical after Monaco based on mixed signals being cast by Wolff and Hamilton. Time will tell.

Agree with your posts re this subject AR3-GP. I also see the hesitancy and mixed messages from Hamilton and it doesn’t bode well for their situation. Spain will be interesting to watch...

[organic]

[shady]

Good for Mick, lets see how he stacks up against George and possibly extract some info from the weekend on the whole as a comparison.