2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Why don't merc poach some redbull top strategists?
They seem to prefer generating their own talent from within.
Also a question to the those familiar with the budget regs.. what if releasing vowells and others was a way to reduce the wage bill and unlock more funding for car development?
For Sure!!

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:34 am
Why don't merc poach some redbull top strategists?
They seem to prefer generating their own talent from within.
Also a question to the those familiar with the budget regs.. what if releasing vowells and others was a way to reduce the wage bill and unlock more funding for car development?
I think when you poach top talent from a rival team when the employee is happy & settled, you're going to pay massively over the odds in terms of salary/bonuses.

That was fine for RB when they were recently tapping up Merc HPP engineers for their new powertrains department because the salaries aren't part of the cap, but hiring RB strategists would cost a lot of $ which would fall under the budget cap. Not something that's worth eating into your yearly budget over I think

RonMexico
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:34 am
Why don't merc poach some redbull top strategists?
They seem to prefer generating their own talent from within.
Also a question to the those familiar with the budget regs.. what if releasing vowells and others was a way to reduce the wage bill and unlock more funding for car development?
There is an awful lot more to strategy than just plugging in one or two engineers. Red Bull have excellent (best of the field) strategists on the pit wall who happen to be backed by the best team/best simulation tools ect ect. RB have been extremely sharp on strategy for many years now. That's a baked in advantage.

Real change in F1 takes years to come to fruition. Maybe something is rotten in Mercedes and we are only seeing the degredation in the last year or two.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Well if Toto's word is anything to go by, he was incredibly hard on the team regarding the failings of the W13. Perhaps disrespectfully so. Fairly early on in the season he told the world the car was a ****box. I'd never heard a team principal speak of their team's work in this way and Hamilton and Russell never cursed the car this way.

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ringo
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think he is a tough love kind of boss who is frank. Possibly trying to adopt Lauda's traits, who may have created that kind of frank culture in the team. Totto is smart, he knows how to motivate his people, he wouldnt do or say anything that would backfire. So yes, i suspect some Lauda influence there. He's basically saying we are better than this w13 let's face the facts, the car is no good.

But a good point was made on the RB straegy machine. It may take more than poaching the strategists. But i think the can replicate the tools they had at rb if they switched. Even if it means poaching a head of strategy who would know what building blocks to look for and install at mercedes.
For Sure!!

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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:31 am
I think he is a tough love kind of boss who is frank. Possibly trying to adopt Lauda's traits, who may have created that kind of frank culture in the team. Totto is smart, he knows how to motivate his people, he wouldnt do or say anything that would backfire. So yes, i suspect some Lauda influence there. He's basically saying we are better than this w13 let's face the facts, the car is no good.
I don't think it's necessary to romanticize every last word that comes of out his mouth, as if he can do no wrong. Ross Brown didn't seem too pleased with Toto many years ago. Toto isn't always right.

He doesn't know how his words can impact every last person at the factory. He was simply overcompensating for Hamilton and threw the team under the bus in spite of the last 8 years of WCC. I don't think it was a class thing for a team principal to say. Neither driver, who was actually driving the car, sunk to this level.

In any case, are his "motivations" responsible for the departures of big names within the team? :?

mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:56 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:31 am
I think he is a tough love kind of boss who is frank. Possibly trying to adopt Lauda's traits, who may have created that kind of frank culture in the team. Totto is smart, he knows how to motivate his people, he wouldnt do or say anything that would backfire. So yes, i suspect some Lauda influence there. He's basically saying we are better than this w13 let's face the facts, the car is no good.
I don't think it's necessary to romanticize every last word that comes of out his mouth, as if he can do no wrong. Ross Brown didn't seem too pleased with Toto many years ago. Toto isn't always right.

He doesn't know how his words can impact every last person at the factory. He was simply overcompensating for Hamilton and threw the team under the bus in spite of the last 8 years of WCC. I don't think it was a class thing for a team principal to say. Neither driver, who was actually driving the car, sunk to this level.

In any case, are his "motivations" responsible for the departures of big names within the team? :?
Toto rode the success from his day 1 at Mercedes from 2013. It was a year where Mercedes made big inroads towards building successful car. Brawn left after having done everything that was required to succeed and since then, there was no looking back for Toto until they hit 2021. Since then, it has been a turbulent time for the team and 2022 was the first genuine challenge in front of Toto after entering the big arena. He has looked less than stellar in the absence of limelight of success. Doing and saying things that one wouldn't have heard in those mighty Mercedes years. In the last few years, there is an exodus of talent from the factories that is adding to the agony. It's easy to be a likeable boss when you are kissing success everyday. The true character gets tested in the most difficult times.

the EDGE
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:31 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:21 am
the EDGE wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:43 pm


Technically correct. And one explanation for that is he just woke up one day, & everything was so rosey, he thought he’d resign from his dream job at a top team an go pick flowers in his garden for the rest of his life. But I don’t think so
I think we should get back to the heart of the matter which was accessing the credibility of the idea that someone in the position of James Vowles leaving his role, and taking some people with him, along with prior departures such as Andy Cowell and other HPP personnel, is weighing negatively on Mercedes, and potentially the team morale.

As Helmut Marko suggested, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume it has. Whose next? Hamilton in 2 years time? Toto probably at the same time?

JV's departure is significant. It was rumored that he was one a potential successor for Toto.

Contrary to what you initially proposed, I don't think this is "spinning" of any kind. These are real issues and concerns than any organization would be facing after the departure of one of their own. He has taken some people with him and this comes against the baggage of a very poor 2022 season and potentially knowing that there will be more departures to come in the near future (likely Hamilton and Toto in the next 3-4 years).

These events are not happening in isolation. It's not "nothing". Personnel will be feeling like the "Dream team" is coming to an end, piece by piece. Cowell gone. Vowles gone. Soon Hamilton and Toto. The team has to be planning for a post Wolff-Hamilton future.
Well said.

I cant see Toto staying without Lewis in the team.
JV had the keys to Merc in his pocket, yet choose to leave… to go to Williams. Why?

Because, as part of his succession plan training he’s gone to get hands on experience of running a team. He’s took personnel with him (if Marko is to be believed) to give him a fighting chance of moving Williams up the grid

Then, when toto steps back, JV returns to run Merc with all the experience he needs

If you want to look at a dream team falling apart, take RB themselves

First head of aero Prodromou leaves, then his replacement Dan fellows leaves, along with Andrew Alessi and several other key design team member, all whilst the team try to prepare for inevitable retirement of Adrian Newey. Geez, the mood must be tense in the red bull camp!

Cs98
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:51 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:41 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:35 pm


If that’s what Marko is saying, then in my book, it’s clear evidence that Vowels is still a Mercedes man & the mood is good
Does it also mean Mercedes and Hamilton won't be their biggest challenger? Or is he only lying when it's inconvenient :wink:
Everything that comes out of that man’s mouth is spin… but F1 staff will always talk up their competitors… even RB’s… that’s part of the spin
Definitely not. He’s one of the most honest personalities in all of F1. Always gives a straight up answer and is not afraid to tell you new information. That doesn’t mean everything he says is true, everyone has their bias, no less Marko because he’s a RB man. But a spin merchant is someone who just lies for their own convenience. I always get the sense Marko believes what he says.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 am

Then, when toto steps back, JV returns to run Merc with all the experience he needs
I am sure Shovlin agrees to this plan!
I thought the plan was similar when Paddy went to Williams. :D
the EDGE wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 am
If you want to look at a dream team falling apart, take RB themselves

First head of aero Prodromou leaves, then his replacement Dan fellows leaves, along with Andrew Alessi and several other key design team member, all whilst the team try to prepare for inevitable retirement of Adrian Newey. Geez, the mood must be tense in the red bull camp!
It's relief if anything for Red Bull. PP went back to McLaren and hasn't built one car that can really compete. Dan Fallows, the man responsible for RB13, was off the F1 program which made him leave Red Bull. Let's see how he would do at Aston.

Cs98
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:53 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:30 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:11 pm


I would say sacking TP is both far more demoralising and shows more problems in a team, than what would happen if someone in another team leaves to take a great promotion opportunity, as that shows no weakness in the team

Merc are well know for their great succession planning, many believe this move is part of it
JV was the Toto succession plan. He's now at another team....
Sorry, that’s the first I’ve heard, and as for a months notice, it was reported they’d being preparing his move for month.
It wasn't as I recall. It was reported that Vowles had taken a more senior role within the team and his presence at the track had been replaced by several more junior engineers, whilst he oversaw the operations from home (going the way of James Allison). Nowhere that I can recall was it reported that this was part of a move to another team. The reporting suggested Toto was made aware of the move at the end of the year.
Last edited by Cs98 on Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Yeah I’m not sure it makes much sense Vowles ‘working from home’ and filling the other roles with juniors. You would be alongside them guiding them in each of their choices and offering the best advice you can, rather than throwing in at the deep end and saying manage that race strategically for me.

Swed3121
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:31 am
I think he is a tough love kind of boss who is frank. Possibly trying to adopt Lauda's traits, who may have created that kind of frank culture in the team. Totto is smart, he knows how to motivate his people, he wouldnt do or say anything that would backfire. So yes, i suspect some Lauda influence there. He's basically saying we are better than this w13 let's face the facts, the car is no good.

But a good point was made on the RB straegy machine. It may take more than poaching the strategists. But i think the can replicate the tools they had at rb if they switched. Even if it means poaching a head of strategy who would know what building blocks to look for and install at mercedes.
I think stealing even a head of strategy from RB wouldn’t change anything. Mercedes strategy problem has always stemd on its rigid structure and non-willingness to adapt plans around driver feedback, we saw this many times this year with Russell suggesting strategies that turned out to be effective but where flat out rejected by the pit wall.
This is a company wide structure and I feel someone used to the RB way of quick decisions and larger willingness to push things a bit might feel very trapped in Mercedes‘ corporate structure.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Swed3121 wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:31 am
I think he is a tough love kind of boss who is frank. Possibly trying to adopt Lauda's traits, who may have created that kind of frank culture in the team. Totto is smart, he knows how to motivate his people, he wouldnt do or say anything that would backfire. So yes, i suspect some Lauda influence there. He's basically saying we are better than this w13 let's face the facts, the car is no good.

But a good point was made on the RB straegy machine. It may take more than poaching the strategists. But i think the can replicate the tools they had at rb if they switched. Even if it means poaching a head of strategy who would know what building blocks to look for and install at mercedes.
I think stealing even a head of strategy from RB wouldn’t change anything. Mercedes strategy problem has always stemd on its rigid structure and non-willingness to adapt plans around driver feedback, we saw this many times this year with Russell suggesting strategies that turned out to be effective but where flat out rejected by the pit wall.
This is a company wide structure and I feel someone used to the RB way of quick decisions and larger willingness to push things a bit might feel very trapped in Mercedes‘ corporate structure.
Surly it all depends on the models and the interpretation of the models data?

Red Bull seem to have good models and good people to interpret the best options, which also depends on the driver being able to hit set targets and pit crews to to get a job done consistently in a timeslot.
Just taking one or two people, even if they are the very best will not be an instant slot in fix.

Everything from tyre wear to fuel use and possibly how fresh or annoyed the driver is can have a huge influence.
Just a rain shower in the morning can throw a clog in the wheels as it makes actual tyre deg different to what is plugged in to the program, which is when experience with that car/driver/track means win or lose.

I don't think it is anywhere close to just reading a screen yet, if it ever will be.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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ringo
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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You need 1 or 2 people who know what should be in place. That's all it takes. Knowledge of what exists at redbull and the gaps between redbull and mercedes strategy. That director will then get the people and systems in place to close the gaps. It may be a year or 2 but it can be done. Even less than a year if it's a matter of procedures.
From what I gather Redbull seem to have some kind of multipe systems running in parallel.
They really adapt on the drop of a dime to the situation. They dont have a slow script like Mercedes. Maybe RB are using some kind of AI or super computer or something.
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