2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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McMika98 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:00 pm
stonehenge wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:23 pm

I think Mercedes has a good chance to significantly improve over the winter since, as you say, there are some very low hanging fruit out there, particularly on the geometry of the chassis and rear suspension. Word on the street is that all teams are pretty much gonna copy Red Bull's approach next year so there should be some gains there from every team. The question (as always in F1) is how much relative gain can teams make, and that comes down to how high the ceiling for Red Bull is. I hope it's quite low, and there are good reasons to think so.

HATE to burst your and many fans bubble but it ain't happening.

ToTo speaking to the F1 Nation podcast after Abu Dhabi is absolute resolute and dismissive. He mentioned that looking at Aston early season showed that the suspension and gearbox etc were fundamentally sound and did not need addressing. Such a shame as they will drag both Aston and Williams down with this utter stupendous arrogance and unwavering penchant to fail and not learn from mistakes. 2024 is already looking gloomy with no chance of catching Redbull but being behind Mclaren and Alpha Tauri.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

To add more insult to injury
The RB20 will be another evolution. Red Bull still sees plenty of potential for development with its concept, which everyone has now switched to. The development curve is still steep, according to rumours from Milton Keynes. With the early start to development, the world champion team hopes to come out of the starting blocks with plenty of momentum.

And yet there are stumbling blocks. Although the budget cap penalty has expired, it is likely to continue to have an impact to a certain extent in 2024. It is said that this will primarily affect the second package - i.e. the first upgrade package during the season.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rb20-2024/
He is in a far better position to know than we are. Even if he does not have the knowledge himself he works closely with those who do so it is not just his own thought. Despite what some would have us believe he is not thick, nor does he have total control of the planning direction. Even in the disaster that was 2023 they finished second.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

CMC
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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McMika98 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:00 pm

HATE to burst your and many fans bubble but it ain't happening.
Really doesn't seem like you "hate" to do whatever it is you're trying to do here. Your reputation score of -24 on the site seems rather telling, though.

I'll eat my hat if Mercedes finishes behind whatever the AlphaTauri team will be called.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I don't think it's contentious to think Mercedes can only go up from here.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:18 pm
I don't think it's contentious to think Mercedes can only go up from here.
Although I am somewhat of a Merc fan, I want to see ALL the teams go up from where they are. The more scrapping for wins the better I like it
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:18 pm
I don't think it's contentious to think Mercedes can only go up from here.
That framing sets up further criticisms if there is any stumbling blocks ahead. And there will be.
Merc have a load of potential, that much is clear. Taking a pretty much cut-and-shut idea to 2nd in the championship typifies that. But it won't be a straight-line linear process. It takes time and the nous to achieve.
After all it took Red Bull many years to stop complaining and taking steps for something as blatantly obvious as the engine. With multiple quite threats in year 1, 2 and 3 of the hybrid era.

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:18 pm
I don't think it's contentious to think Mercedes can only go up from here.
I guess we have to define here what is "current state" to discuss about going up.

This year, there were races where Mercedes was pretty much 2nd ( Spain, Singapore, Texas, Mexico), sometimes they were 4-5th ( Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Austria, Brazil), but mostly 3rd /3rd-ish.

Also, there wasn't any kind of linear progression, either backwards or forwards. Ferrari & McLaren certainly upped their game as season progressed, whereas AM regressed.

But, it's fair to say that there is a good chance that this trends continues, hence Mercedes will have to face Ferrari and McLaren being strong from March. That is my baseline scenario at least, until proven otherwise.

With that in mind, and the fact that there is a concept change for Mercedes, IMO the first target for 2024 is to bring a car that can compete (not necessarily beat) against these two teams, right from the start. Not in Spain or Canada (where the first-second round of upgrades usually come into play), but in Bahrain. Then, Mercedes can aim to claim that 2nd place through assimilating this new concept and prove it through the upgrades.

The next bit is crucial, I think. When the summer break is over, if they have claimed that 2nd spot and reduce the relative gap to RB significantly, then OK. If not, surely there will be voices calling for aiming for 2026.
Last edited by Bill_Kar on Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Henri
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Hope we can get back to our best in car development.. and challenge redbull next season

Elite
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Bill_Kar wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:26 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:18 pm
I don't think it's contentious to think Mercedes can only go up from here.
I guess we have to define here what is "current state" to discuss about going up.

This year, there were races where Mercedes was pretty much 2nd ( Spain, Singapore, Mexico), sometimes they were 4-5th ( Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Austria, Brazil), but mostly 3rd /3rd-ish.

Also, there wasn't any kind of linear progression, either backwards or forwards. Ferrari & McLaren certainly upped their game as season progressed, whereas AM regressed.

But, it's fair to say that there is a good chance that this trends continues, hence Mercedes will have to face Ferrari and McLaren being strong from March. That is my baseline scenario at least, until proven otherwise.

With that in mind, and the fact that there is a concept change for Mercedes, IMO the first target for 2024 is to bring a car that can compete (not necessarily beat) against these two teams, right from the start. Not in Spain or Canada (where the first-second round of upgrades usually come into play), but in Bahrain. Then, Mercedes can aim to claim that 2nd place through assimilating this new concept and prove it through the upgrades.

The next bit is crucial, I think. When the summer break is over, if they have claimed that 2nd spot and reduce the relative gap to RB significantly, then OK. If not, surely there will be voices calling for aiming for 2026.
I fully agree. In Bahrain they just need to at least be 2-4th fastest before refining their concept and closing the gap to the leader. Best case the concept is golden and closes in on the leader faster. Worst case we start looking at 2026.

CMC
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The season had plenty of disappointing moments, to be sure. But P2 in the Constructors' without a win - officially the last time was 2007 but only due to McLaren's Spygate exclusion. Prior to that, 2004 when MSC dominated in the F2004. AFAIK, those are the only times this has occurred. It says more about the dominance of Max and the RB19, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Henri
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Average driver race pace this season.. Lewis did good with the car he had.. we need the w15 to be good

Luscion
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Two part interview with Allison from a day ago.Talks about how the odds are against them but theyve set an ambitious target and have made a lot of progress with the W15 (19:46 in part 2)




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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Henri wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 12:07 pm

Average driver race pace this season.. Lewis did good with the car he had.. we need the w15 to be good
Almost 2 tenths faster than George who I consider to be very good too (not as good as he himself thinks :D )haha, but ok, good to have confidence. That is quite impressive. I could see that Lewis was trying to optimize the results this year. I never really liked that about his driving (patiently waiting behind someone he could also pass) but still, even when doing that he is this much faster than George.

Do you also have these numbers from last year? Would be really interesting to see.

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:16 pm
Henri wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 12:07 pm
https://twitter.com/fiagirly/status/1731745296168669194
Average driver race pace this season.. Lewis did good with the car he had.. we need the w15 to be good
Almost 2 tenths faster than George who I consider to be very good too (not as good as he himself thinks :D )haha, but ok, good to have confidence. That is quite impressive. I could see that Lewis was trying to optimize the results this year. I never really liked that about his driving (patiently waiting behind someone he could also pass) but still, even when doing that he is this much faster than George.

Do you also have these numbers from last year? Would be really interesting to see.
This is the sort of gap I expected between Lewis and George before he came to Merc.. Lewis is an all-time top driver whereas George is a very talented but still undoubtedly raw. In 2022, with a car that George seemed fairly content with and one that Lewis didn't like it was still obvious that Lewis was faster (and in qualifying across the season the two of them were equal). With a car that Lewis was a bit happier with - the W14 - and one that Russell didn't love (though neither did Ham) the gap between them grew. With a car with a strong rear end that Lewis can trust which is sort of essential for his style I expect the gap between them to maybe be even more than 2 tenths

Here's 2022 - this analysis takes out any results wherein one driver was compromised by something like a failed DRS mechanism but includes any deficit induced by a driver error (for instance track limits) and takes the delta from the last quali session in which both drivers recorded a laptime

Image

Image

They haven't shown their 2023 season analysis yet

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Thanks, yes, that seems like the most fair way to compare data. They will surely have the 23 data up over the next month then. For George imho it is quite “good luck” that Mercedes is not fighting for the world title in his first seasons there. Now the scrutiny he is under is much less and that will allow him the years needed to polish the talent he undoubtedly has. But for now, Lewis increased the average pace gap over this year.

Henri
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:23 pm
Sieper wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:16 pm
Henri wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 12:07 pm
https://twitter.com/fiagirly/status/1731745296168669194
Average driver race pace this season.. Lewis did good with the car he had.. we need the w15 to be good
Almost 2 tenths faster than George who I consider to be very good too (not as good as he himself thinks :D )haha, but ok, good to have confidence. That is quite impressive. I could see that Lewis was trying to optimize the results this year. I never really liked that about his driving (patiently waiting behind someone he could also pass) but still, even when doing that he is this much faster than George.

Do you also have these numbers from last year? Would be really interesting to see.
This is the sort of gap I expected between Lewis and George before he came to Merc.. Lewis is an all-time top driver whereas George is a very talented but still undoubtedly raw. In 2022, with a car that George seemed fairly content with and one that Lewis didn't like it was still obvious that Lewis was faster (and in qualifying across the season the two of them were equal). With a car that Lewis was a bit happier with - the W14 - and one that Russell didn't love (though neither did Ham) the gap between them grew. With a car with a strong rear end that Lewis can trust which is sort of essential for his style I expect the gap between them to maybe be even more than 2 tenths

Here's 2022 - this analysis takes out any results wherein one driver was compromised by something like a failed DRS mechanism but includes any deficit induced by a driver error (for instance track limits) and takes the delta from the last quali session in which both drivers recorded a laptime

https://preview.redd.it/43raed0cv9ca1.p ... e35af8a74d

https://preview.redd.it/0tnishfcv9ca1.p ... bd2fbf2e1c

They haven't shown their 2023 season analysis yet
George really had a good season with the w13.. he was close to matching a near 40 year old Lewis