Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2022, 05:44

Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Are there any racing series that allow Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) pistons and other super alloys?

Are there any production automobiles that have engine parts made out of super alloys?


Could a race engine last longer and go longer between rebuilds if they had super alloy parts? If yes, then could teams find a way to save money in the long run by using super alloys if they did not have to rebuild the engine as often? The initial cost up front would be very expensive but I'm trying to think if the longevity and increase of the engine's service life would make up for it?

Hoffman900
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Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 21:55
Are there any racing series that allow Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) pistons and other super alloys?

Are there any production automobiles that have engine parts made out of super alloys?


Could a race engine last longer and go longer between rebuilds if they had super alloy parts? If yes, then could teams find a way to save money in the long run by using super alloys if they did not have to rebuild the engine as often? The initial cost up front would be very expensive but I'm trying to think if the longevity and increase of the engine's service life would make up for it?
There are MotoCross and SuperCross engines out there with MMC parts. Some Moto3 components have been as well. Most non-professional drag racing and other racing series technically allow it but you never seen it there as these are hobbyist efforts.

The Cosworth T.50 V12 has MMC pistons and the Lanzante TAG project has MMC pistons as well.

Other than that you don’t see it much. It’s really only available for motorsports from one supplier, most professional series have rules against it and are usually power / rev capped in some way that existing materials from multiple vendors work, and etc.

OEMs don’t use them for the same reason plus costs. They’re in the business of making profits, not building no expense spared cars.

The marketing literature suggests there may be some performance improvement, but some of this stuff is hard to quantify.

The supplier:
https://materion.com/products/metal-mat ... automotive

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Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2022, 05:44

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 21:55
Are there any racing series that allow Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) pistons and other super alloys?

Are there any production automobiles that have engine parts made out of super alloys?


Could a race engine last longer and go longer between rebuilds if they had super alloy parts? If yes, then could teams find a way to save money in the long run by using super alloys if they did not have to rebuild the engine as often? The initial cost up front would be very expensive but I'm trying to think if the longevity and increase of the engine's service life would make up for it?
There are MotoCross and SuperCross engines out there with MMC parts. Some Moto3 components have been as well. Most non-professional drag racing and other racing series technically allow it but you never seen it there as these are hobbyist efforts.

The Cosworth T.50 V12 has MMC pistons and the Lanzante TAG project has MMC pistons as well.

Other than that you don’t see it much. It’s really only available for motorsports from one supplier, most professional series have rules against it and are usually power / rev capped in some way that existing materials from multiple vendors work, and etc.

OEMs don’t use them for the same reason plus costs. They’re in the business of making profits, not building no expense spared cars.

The marketing literature suggests there may be some performance improvement, but some of this stuff is hard to quantify.

The supplier:
https://materion.com/products/metal-mat ... automotive
Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?

Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16
Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 21:55
Are there any racing series that allow Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) pistons and other super alloys?

Are there any production automobiles that have engine parts made out of super alloys?


Could a race engine last longer and go longer between rebuilds if they had super alloy parts? If yes, then could teams find a way to save money in the long run by using super alloys if they did not have to rebuild the engine as often? The initial cost up front would be very expensive but I'm trying to think if the longevity and increase of the engine's service life would make up for it?
There are MotoCross and SuperCross engines out there with MMC parts. Some Moto3 components have been as well. Most non-professional drag racing and other racing series technically allow it but you never seen it there as these are hobbyist efforts.

The Cosworth T.50 V12 has MMC pistons and the Lanzante TAG project has MMC pistons as well.

Other than that you don’t see it much. It’s really only available for motorsports from one supplier, most professional series have rules against it and are usually power / rev capped in some way that existing materials from multiple vendors work, and etc.

OEMs don’t use them for the same reason plus costs. They’re in the business of making profits, not building no expense spared cars.

The marketing literature suggests there may be some performance improvement, but some of this stuff is hard to quantify.

The supplier:
https://materion.com/products/metal-mat ... automotive
Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
Probably not. Usually it’s things like rings and bearings that are what wear out and MMC isn’t really going to help you there.

mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Bit of a tangent but the first Lotus Elise came with MMC Disc brakes. Even 20 years later people are still using the same discs!

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Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2022, 05:44

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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mrluke wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 01:07
Bit of a tangent but the first Lotus Elise came with MMC Disc brakes. Even 20 years later people are still using the same discs!
Is there specific differences between MMC vs carbon ceramic? If not, has anyone done any tests comparing MMC vs carbon ceramic brake discs and pads for longevity and stopping distance?

I found this on Quora, but it's not a scientific study...

"What is a comparison between a metal matrix and a ceramic matrix composite?"
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-compari ... te?share=1

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Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2022, 05:44

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Hoffman900 wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:49
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16
Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22


There are MotoCross and SuperCross engines out there with MMC parts. Some Moto3 components have been as well. Most non-professional drag racing and other racing series technically allow it but you never seen it there as these are hobbyist efforts.

The Cosworth T.50 V12 has MMC pistons and the Lanzante TAG project has MMC pistons as well.

Other than that you don’t see it much. It’s really only available for motorsports from one supplier, most professional series have rules against it and are usually power / rev capped in some way that existing materials from multiple vendors work, and etc.

OEMs don’t use them for the same reason plus costs. They’re in the business of making profits, not building no expense spared cars.

The marketing literature suggests there may be some performance improvement, but some of this stuff is hard to quantify.

The supplier:
https://materion.com/products/metal-mat ... automotive
Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
Probably not. Usually it’s things like rings and bearings that are what wear out and MMC isn’t really going to help you there.
Can't bearings be made out of super alloys, tungsten carbide or cobalt?

Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 02:48
Hoffman900 wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:49
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16


Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
Probably not. Usually it’s things like rings and bearings that are what wear out and MMC isn’t really going to help you there.
Can't bearings be made out of super alloys, tungsten carbide or cobalt?
You can make bearings out if anything, but at the end of the day, they live a very hard life and take all the loads.

Usually what’s going to dictate a lot of this is peak cylinder pressure and the rate of it. The physics are what they are.

Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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mrluke wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 01:07
Bit of a tangent but the first Lotus Elise came with MMC Disc brakes. Even 20 years later people are still using the same discs!
I just want to point out that one using their Elise how it was intended is making them last that long. I know track day participants who never wear out their tires when a good driver would chew them up in a single weekend.

That said MMC would work well there, but they’re not that much better.

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Stu
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Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16
Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 21:55
Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
That is probably a moot point, most (none!!?) of these show-ponies will never cover enough miles to ever get to rebuild mileage…
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2022, 05:44

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Stu wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 09:08
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16
Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22

Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
That is probably a moot point, most (none!!?) of these show-ponies will never cover enough miles to ever get to rebuild mileage…
Ferrari F40
Ferrari Testarossa
Ferrari F50
Ferrari Enzo
Ferrari F430

Lamborghini Countach
Lamborghini Diablo
Lamborghini Gallardo
Lamborghini Aventador

Porsche Carrera GT

I think all those cars can easily get up to 100,000 miles especially if living in Arizona, Las Vegas, southern California, Florida and Texas and are weekly driven. But, it will be extremely expensive considering some of the Ferrari's need a rebuilt engine every 15,000 miles like the F355 and that's not even a "super car."

AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 00:16
Hoffman900 wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 17:22
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 21:55
Are there any racing series that allow Metal Matrix Composite (MMC) pistons and other super alloys?

Are there any production automobiles that have engine parts made out of super alloys?


Could a race engine last longer and go longer between rebuilds if they had super alloy parts? If yes, then could teams find a way to save money in the long run by using super alloys if they did not have to rebuild the engine as often? The initial cost up front would be very expensive but I'm trying to think if the longevity and increase of the engine's service life would make up for it?
There are MotoCross and SuperCross engines out there with MMC parts. Some Moto3 components have been as well. Most non-professional drag racing and other racing series technically allow it but you never seen it there as these are hobbyist efforts.

The Cosworth T.50 V12 has MMC pistons and the Lanzante TAG project has MMC pistons as well.

Other than that you don’t see it much. It’s really only available for motorsports from one supplier, most professional series have rules against it and are usually power / rev capped in some way that existing materials from multiple vendors work, and etc.

OEMs don’t use them for the same reason plus costs. They’re in the business of making profits, not building no expense spared cars.

The marketing literature suggests there may be some performance improvement, but some of this stuff is hard to quantify.

The supplier:
https://materion.com/products/metal-mat ... automotive
Would the Mercedes AMG One have benefited from MMC pistons and other parts of the engine being made out of super alloys to extend the engine service life intervals? I believe the AMG One needs a engine rebuild every 30,000 miles.

Does anyone know the specific parts of the AMG One engine that require being replaced every 30,000 miles?
I don't think the AMG-One would ever get 30,000 miles put on it. These cars are not going to get driven. They are collectors cars. Maybe the odd one gets lent to the car-review shows to get some miles, but I doubt Mercedes will perform a rebuilt service on a single one of the cars they sell.

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Honda Porsche fan
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Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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With regards to specifically engine bearings and piston rings, what materials/alloys are allowed in F1? Do any production automakers/cars use a higher strength alloy that is forbidden in F1 for bearings and piston rings?

I believe I read some where that ductile iron has been used for bearings. Ductile iron being stronger than grey cast and CGI.

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godlameroso
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Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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Total Seal makes piston rings for F1. Lake Speed is a real gentleman and loves talking about piston rings. You could get a better answer from him. As far as I'm aware, F1 uses tool steel rings with DLC coating. Some manufacturers anodize the ring lands on their pistons, the issue with anodizing is that it's extremely hard to get a good surface finish. The reason for anodizing is that it prevents micro welding from the ring to the piston. However, because it is difficult to achieve a good surface finish, anodizing can allow more blow-by due to said surface finish. Honda's special plating not only gave them extremely strong cylinder walls, but also gave them the ability to anodize the piston ring lands while maintaining excellent surface finish.
Saishū kōnā

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Any racing series allow MMC pistons and other super alloys?

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www.LNengineering.com/files/2019-LN-Eng ... ystems.pdf
author Charles Navarro
seems very informative
found by searching - this link doesn't work

the company is
LN Engineering LLC
Momence Illinois
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 17 Feb 2023, 01:06, edited 1 time in total.