2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:15 pm
SchuMassa wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:54 am
He messed up S1, that's it.
Got the sector times from both laps or at all the best sectors from qualifying?
Alonso seemed to have great potential in the later stages of qualifying.
First lap of Q3 was 5 tenths from Ferrari with used tires (against Ferrari's new) and a big lock up, too.
What went so backwards in last run?
From the onboard I didn't spot any big moment.
Alonso said in the radio that it was a good lap (the last one). I don't think he messed something up on that lap.
My theory for what happened is what i wrote above.

ALO_Power
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:28 pm
Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.
I checked the telemetry from his 2 flying laps in Q3.
In his last run it is clear that from corners 7,8,9 to corner 14 he was losing time compared to his previous run.
i think that the better grip that the new softs offered, allowed him to have slightly different braking points and entry speeds or maybe slight different lines compared to his previous run. It is clear from telemetry that he didn't enter some corners exactly the same way as his previous lap, nor carried the same speed in the corners in those 2 laps.
Telemetry also shows that he had for sure better traction out of corners, but he he ended up with slightly less top speed on the straights compared to his previous run (probably because in his second run, as i said before, he didn't run 5-6 seconds behind another car, so he had zero tow on the long straights)
Is either that, or they changed something in the pits, adjusted something in the pits balance/df wise, etc etc.

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Alonso Fan
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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If he improved as much as everyone else on his last run he would be p4
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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I am hoping Alonso overtakes at least one Williams on the first lap otherwise going to be a tough race to crack the top 5

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:28 pm
Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.
Alonso used one set of softs in Q1, So he would have 3 sets of softs + 1 for getting into Q3. The Onboard from Alonso's 1st run in Q3 only comes on around turn 3 and 4 of the outlap. So he could have had used tires, not sure how you know they were used? I guess they could be keeping 1 set for the race.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Image
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:07 pm
ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:28 pm
Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.
I checked the telemetry from his 2 flying laps in Q3.
In his last run it is clear that from corners 7,8,9 to corner 14 he was losing time compared to his previous run.
i think that the better grip that the new softs offered, allowed him to have slightly different braking points and entry speeds or maybe slight different lines compared to his previous run. It is clear from telemetry that he didn't enter some corners exactly the same way as his previous lap, nor carried the same speed in the corners in those 2 laps.
Telemetry also shows that he had for sure better traction out of corners, but he he ended up with slightly less top speed on the straights compared to his previous run (probably because in his second run, as i said before, he didn't run 5-6 seconds behind another car, so he had zero tow on the long straights)
Is either that, or they changed something in the pits, adjusted something in the pits balance/df wise, etc etc.
Green is first run.
White 2nd run.
- Couldn't get the car slowed down in time for turn 1. missed the apex and that cost him. That makes you go wide and then you have to slow the car down more, later on the throttle.

-Same thing in turn 5 and turn 7.
Image

He seems to adjust his braking after that, he's coming off the throttle earlier, but he's lost too much time by then.


If had to guess at his thinking ..... He didn't get as much braking with the new set of soft tires as he was expecting.
That set him off on the wrong foot. Then he tried to brake later to make up for it and that's always going to be really touchy. It didn't work for him.

If he did use used tires on the first stint, that might explain why he was surprised by the lack of improved braking. Either way, I think his first run was a banker, then the 2nd run was high risk endeavour to move up the charts cause the car wasn't fast enough.

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Alo_Fan
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:59 pm
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:07 pm
ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:28 pm
Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.
I checked the telemetry from his 2 flying laps in Q3.
In his last run it is clear that from corners 7,8,9 to corner 14 he was losing time compared to his previous run.
i think that the better grip that the new softs offered, allowed him to have slightly different braking points and entry speeds or maybe slight different lines compared to his previous run. It is clear from telemetry that he didn't enter some corners exactly the same way as his previous lap, nor carried the same speed in the corners in those 2 laps.
Telemetry also shows that he had for sure better traction out of corners, but he he ended up with slightly less top speed on the straights compared to his previous run (probably because in his second run, as i said before, he didn't run 5-6 seconds behind another car, so he had zero tow on the long straights)
Is either that, or they changed something in the pits, adjusted something in the pits balance/df wise, etc etc.
Green is first run.
White 2nd run.
- Couldn't get the car slowed down in time for turn 1. missed the apex and that cost him. That makes you go wide and then you have to slow the car down more, later on the throttle.

-Same thing in turn 5 and turn 7.
https://i.ibb.co/4fGxHm4/Screenshot-fro ... -39-22.png

He seems to adjust his braking after that, he's coming off the throttle earlier, but he's lost too much time by then.


If had to guess at his thinking ..... He didn't get as much braking with the new set of soft tires as he was expecting.
That set him off on the wrong foot. Then he tried to brake later to make up for it and that's always going to be really touchy. It didn't work for him.

If he did use used tires on the first stint, that might explain why he was surprised by the lack of improved braking. Either way, I think his first run was a banker, then the 2nd run was high risk endeavour to move up the charts cause the car wasn't fast enough.
Very insightful, thanks for sharing.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:59 pm
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:07 pm
ALO_Power wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:28 pm
Alonso's Q3 Sectors:
1st run (used softs+ lock up): 26.490 | 31.113 | 35.952
2nd run (new softs): 26.493 | 31.106 | 35.960

They were quite identical. Doesn't seem right to not get benefited by having fresh soft rubber + a cleaner lap.
I checked the telemetry from his 2 flying laps in Q3.
In his last run it is clear that from corners 7,8,9 to corner 14 he was losing time compared to his previous run.
i think that the better grip that the new softs offered, allowed him to have slightly different braking points and entry speeds or maybe slight different lines compared to his previous run. It is clear from telemetry that he didn't enter some corners exactly the same way as his previous lap, nor carried the same speed in the corners in those 2 laps.
Telemetry also shows that he had for sure better traction out of corners, but he he ended up with slightly less top speed on the straights compared to his previous run (probably because in his second run, as i said before, he didn't run 5-6 seconds behind another car, so he had zero tow on the long straights)
Is either that, or they changed something in the pits, adjusted something in the pits balance/df wise, etc etc.
Green is first run.
White 2nd run.
- Couldn't get the car slowed down in time for turn 1. missed the apex and that cost him. That makes you go wide and then you have to slow the car down more, later on the throttle.

-Same thing in turn 5 and turn 7.
https://i.ibb.co/4fGxHm4/Screenshot-fro ... -39-22.png

He seems to adjust his braking after that, he's coming off the throttle earlier, but he's lost too much time by then.


If had to guess at his thinking ..... He didn't get as much braking with the new set of soft tires as he was expecting.
That set him off on the wrong foot. Then he tried to brake later to make up for it and that's always going to be really touchy. It didn't work for him.

If he did use used tires on the first stint, that might explain why he was surprised by the lack of improved braking. Either way, I think his first run was a banker, then the 2nd run was high risk endeavour to move up the charts cause the car wasn't fast enough.
Yes, he didn’t took t1 in the best possible way, he did run a little bit wide compared to first lap,
and as I said, he is using different braking points and at some corners slightly different lines.
I am not sure if we can blame the breaking performance everywhere, or Alonso just changing his breaking points and his lines a bit, on purpose. He did say after the lap, that it was a good lap after all.

The real problem though starts with the breaking at turn 5 how he enters and how he exits that corner. After exiting t5 he is mostly losing time and that goes on through 7,8 and also exiting turn 9 and up to turn 12.

The break even point though, where his second run became even with the previous lap was at turn 12.
Up until then he was managing to be slightly faster, even with the breaking points he had and the lines he took.

In your telemetry graph, the point in time that you marked is when exiting turn 12. As you can see due to better traction probably, or slightly different line, he exits the corner with higher speed than the previous lap (135km/h to 131km/h). Logic say, that with better tires, better grip, better traction and higher speed at the exit of t12, you will reach a better top speed just before t14.

Image

But he doesn’t !!! As you see in the telemetry graph above in which i have marked the end of the straight just before t14, he keeps loosing time in the straight and he ends up with a lower overall top speed (341km/h to 343km/h). It is there, where i think following a car around 4 seconds behind may be helpful in this circuit. Not only there actually, but in other straights as well.

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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With 2 minutes to go, if I'm not wrong, there were 3 drivers who ran alone in their final Q3 laps: Leclerc, Verstappen and Alonso. Magnussen not sure, maybe he managed to reach the Alpine but I haven't checked. Out of those, Leclerc improved around two and a half tenths, Verstappen failed to improve (edit: old softs according to organic) and Alonso. Everyone else I believe had some form of toe some seconds ahead. It likely wasn't a good lap from Alonso but I agree with Bizonas explanation that running alone also hurt him in a similar style to Monza. Aston were doing an outlap + an extra lap after that so it's tricky to guess but maybe they left the pits too early. So imo it was both driver and team mistake.

Image
Last edited by KimiRai on Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

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organic
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:04 am
With 2 minutes to go, if I'm not wrong, there were 3 drivers who ran alone in their final Q3 laps: Leclerc, Verstappen and Alonso. Magnussen not sure, maybe he managed to reach the second Williams but I haven't checked. Out of those, Leclerc improved around two and a half tenths, Verstappen failed to improve and so did Alonso. Everyone else I believe had some form of toe some seconds ahead. It likely wasn't a good lap from Alonso but I agree with Bizonas explanation that running alone also hurt him in a similar style to Monza. So you could say the team is partly to blame for putting him out there at that moment

https://i.imgur.com/cXPCah2.png
I think ignore max in that equation as he didn't have a new set of soft tyres for his 2nd run and didn't seem to even attempt a lap really. He was 7 tenths off after 2 sectors

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:07 am
KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:04 am
With 2 minutes to go, if I'm not wrong, there were 3 drivers who ran alone in their final Q3 laps: Leclerc, Verstappen and Alonso. Magnussen not sure, maybe he managed to reach the second Williams but I haven't checked. Out of those, Leclerc improved around two and a half tenths, Verstappen failed to improve and so did Alonso. Everyone else I believe had some form of toe some seconds ahead. It likely wasn't a good lap from Alonso but I agree with Bizonas explanation that running alone also hurt him in a similar style to Monza. So you could say the team is partly to blame for putting him out there at that moment

https://i.imgur.com/cXPCah2.png
I think ignore max in that equation as he didn't have a new set of soft tyres for his 2nd run and didn't seem to even attempt a lap really. He was 7 tenths off after 2 sectors
Yeah you are right then, didn't know he was on old softs.

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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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SchuMassa wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:04 am
Pretty disappointing Q3. Alonso's age showing a bit in these moments
it would be nice to see some evidence every time a person blames "age" on alonso outdriving a teammate, thats young enough to be his kid. i mean, i have a gut feeling that max verstappen is a hybrid clone of a yeti and alien but i dont talk about it a lot because i havent found the proof yet. :lol:

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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zoroastar wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:01 am
SchuMassa wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:04 am
Pretty disappointing Q3. Alonso's age showing a bit in these moments
it would be nice to see some evidence every time a person blames "age" on alonso outdriving a teammate, thats young enough to be his kid. i mean, i have a gut feeling that max verstappen is a hybrid clone of a yeti and alien but i dont talk about it a lot because i havent found the proof yet. :lol:
I think he's right, maybe in 18 years Stroll will be as fast as Alonso! :mrgreen:

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Now that you guys bring up Stroll I was disappointed in him this qualy, last races since Austin he was showing better pace but for some reason this weekend he was never near... hopefully he does a better job at Yas Marina. It's a weak Alo track so he should.