F1 lubrication

Bodygard · Post 14 Mar 2007, 19:07

Hello, i've been visiting your site regularly for a while now and i'm an F1 passionate.
I have to do a work now for college about F1 engines more specifically, lubrication.
Well i have some difficulties in finding info about it and thought that you here could help me.

If anyone knows anything about it or knows some sites that have i would be very grateful

Be well

manchild · Post 14 Mar 2007, 19:25

http://www.lubricants.elf.com/lub/conte ... 0520BE.pdf

http://www.elfracing.com/accueil.asp?L=en

Bodygard · Post 14 Mar 2007, 20:35

Thanks. Good info though i would like to go more technical. I also recognize that, that will be difficult...

riff_raff · Post 01 Apr 2007, 08:04

The most serious issue with regards to lube systems in F1 engines is minimizing windage losses. The first company to truly recognize this fact was Cosworth with their DFV engine. Take a look at their scavenge pump arrangement. It consists of what amounts to four small roots blowers, sucking air and oil mist from the crankcase.

With low ground clearance dry sump engines, it is imperative that the sump be scavenged completely free of oil. Otherwise the rod big ends and crank webs will be constantly splashing through this oil and causing significant mechanical losses.

If you want to do an academic study of windage losses, I would suggest that you look to aircraft gearbox designs. The windage losses can be evaluated using equations based on propellor theory. The atmosphere being a 35:1 air-to-oil mixture. There are good tech papers here: http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/citations/all ... 12222.html

Belatti · Post 19 Jul 2007, 14:53

this is all I can tell you about F1 lubricants:

when they get to normal working temperatures, they have just 1 centistoke of viscosity... thats the same as water, I mean, a very very low viscosity for an oil!

riff_raff · Post 12 Aug 2007, 10:30

Belatti,

F1 engine oils are likely not less than 5W at operating temps. That's about 14CSt, not 1CSt.

Belatti · Post 13 Aug 2007, 16:57

riff_raff wrote:Belatti,

F1 engine oils are likely not less than 5W at operating temps. That's about 14CSt, not 1CSt.

OK, my source must be wrong then... that is what a "supposed" lubricant expert told me...
¿Who should I believe?

Ciro Pabón · Post 13 Aug 2007, 21:54

Havoline Energy was used by Jaguar for their Cosworth engines, back in 2000. Here are the specs:

Code: Select all

Product specifications
PRODUCT DESCRIPTOR
KEY PROPERTIES
SAE Grade                                5W-30
Base No.,
— D2896, mg KOH/g                        8.2
— D4739, mg KOH/g                        7.4
Phosphorus, m %                          0.10
Sulfated Ash, m %                        1.10
Viscosity,
— mm2/s @ 40˚C                          55.8
— mm2/s @ 100˚C                          9.85
Viscosity Index                        165
Zinc, m %                                0.11

That is, 9.85 cSt at 100 degrees centigrade.

https://www.cbest.chevron.com/pdsRedire ... Language=E

countersteer · Post 13 Aug 2007, 23:25

Do any of the teams draw lubricant for the engine and gearbox from a common tank? I understood this was done in the past. Didn't know if anybody still did it.

Belatti · Post 17 Aug 2007, 15:02

Thank you a lot Ciro, very good info!!!

Now, we have 9.85 cSt at 100°C, but a F1 engine cooling system works at 130°C++
(at least that was Enrique Scalabroni, an engineer that was involved in Asiatech -former Peugeot- F1 engine project said)

and that leads me to think we have got some sectors inside the engine where oil is at 220++°C......

A good question: ¿wich is oil viscosity at 220°C then?

I almost forgot: do you know what was RPM range for 2000 Cosworth F1 engine? Because as far as I know, the higher RPM, the less lube viscosity you need

Ciro Pabón · Post 19 Aug 2007, 19:42

Oil viscosity at 200º C should be around 1 cSt, same viscosity your friend claims F1 oil has. At 130 º it should be around 2. That's not the way you classify the oil: if you measure its viscosity following SAE (the W numbers we all are familiar with), you specify viscosity at 100º. For example:

Code: Select all

SAE        	Viscosity (cP)*          	Viscosity mm2/s (cSt)
Viscosity  	at Temperature          	at 100o C
Grade      	(oC), Max
--------------------------------------------------------------------------	 
         	Cranking   	Pumpability  	Min	Max
0W       	3250 at —30	30,000 at —35	3.8	 —
5W       	3500 at —25	30,000 at— 30	3.8	 —
10W      	3500 at —20	30,000 at —25	4.1	 —
15W      	3500 at —15	30,000 at —20	5.6	 -
20W      	4500 at —10	30,000 at —15	5.6	 -
25W      	6000 at —5 	30,000 at —10	9.3	 -
20       	—          	—            	5.6	 9.3
30       	—          	—            	9.3	 12.5
40       	—          	—            	12.5	16.3
50       	—          	—            	16.3	21.9
60       	—          	—            	21.9	26.1

To answer your question, take a look (check the black curve, that I think it's similar to what you should expect of an F1 oil):

I have to mention that a typical working temperature for the rotating parts of the engine is 80-100 º, so that's the temperature you should use for design of bearings. As mentioned, you wish to have an oil that diminishes its viscosity for the influence it has as an "atmosphere" where the moving parts in the sump reside. On the other hand, for bearing design, it does not matter if viscosity is different in places where the oil is not "being used".

Cosworth ZETEC-R, models JD, VJ and VJM, used by Jaguar and Minardi, have similar specifications: 10 cilynders, 72 degrees, 120 kg, 2998 cc, 15800 to 16500 rpm, 720-730 bhp.

Belatti · Post 21 Aug 2007, 15:48

Ciro is totally right.
I think I expressed myself (once again) wrong.

To define an oil viscosity, you must define the temp (ussually 100 and 40°C) and whats important, the viscosity index (that defines the slope in the curve that Ciro posted).

Of course you design each part of the engine regarding the working temp in that area (ex: bearings at 100°C, piston rings at 220°C... etc)

riff_raff · Post 25 Aug 2007, 09:29

In a recip piston engine, the important oil characteristic is flash temperature. For most engine oils, the flash temp is usually below 400degF. Once you exceed the flash temp of a lubricant, it vaporizes and fails.

Local oil temps, especially at the supporting HD oil film interface in a journal bearing can rise quite steeply, even though the sump temps are well below the flash temp. Any efficiency loss in the journal bearing is converted to heat energy in the oil film. Since the mass of oil at the HD oil film is very small, the heat transfer rate is very high.

While keeping oil temps high, and thus viscosity and pumping losses low, may seem like a good idea for maximum power, one must be careful to provide enough cooling oil flow to preserve the crank/rod bearings. The job of oil in an engine is not just to provide lubrication, it must also provide cooling.

Belatti · Post 25 Aug 2007, 20:01

riff_raff wrote:In a recip piston engine, the important oil characteristic is flash temperature. For most engine oils, the flash temp is usually below 400degF. Once you exceed the flash temp of a lubricant, it vaporizes and fails.

Local oil temps, especially at the supporting HD oil film interface in a journal bearing can rise quite steeply, even though the sump temps are well below the flash temp....

Thats why piston head shapes designs must be smooth, high temp points can form if there are edges, and if flash temp is passed, oil can go to carbon.

That`s why hi-charged turbo diesel engine pistons have oil galleries inside.

Carlos · Post 21 Oct 2007, 17:09

Oil Anaylsis to Predict Failure - Why And When The Gearbox Will Explode

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/ar ... ilAnalysis
Methods- Big Science

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/ar ... l+Products
Test Results-Whats Wrong With The Oil

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/ar ... ilAnalysis
Practicing Oil Analysis Magazine-Very Cool Site

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/default.asp