No Horns for Mclaren

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
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No Horns for Mclaren

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Did anybody notice at the last GP that Neither Alonso or Hamilton had the Horns on there car? Any reason why they wouldn't have them on since this is a med-high circuit?
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jddh1
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perhaps they found a better setup without them? I don't know, haven't read anything about it.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47

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The horns were deleted as part oft e new rear wing package. The new rear wing profile, uses a Ferrari-like double dip profile. As the horns were used to improve the rear wing performance when the car is yawing (i.e. sliding – at an angle to the direction of travel), then we could presume the new rear wing performs better in yaw than the old wing and hence doesn’t need the horns.

Scarbs

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

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Yea, they definitely ditched the horns. Getting rid of them must reduce drag pretty significantly. Interesting to think that they've had those for 2-3 years now, and only recently have done the development to ditch them. Ferrari must really be putting the pressure on.
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chepoi
chepoi
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And after this Ferrari will tell FIA that the McLaren has been duplicate them....


hahahahahaha....... lol! :roll: :lol:

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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scarbs wrote:The horns were deleted as part oft e new rear wing package. The new rear wing profile, uses a Ferrari-like double dip profile. As the horns were used to improve the rear wing performance when the car is yawing (i.e. sliding – at an angle to the direction of travel), then we could presume the new rear wing performs better in yaw than the old wing and hence doesn’t need the horns.

Scarbs
Yeap - the lateral inclination on the lower plane will result in an increased effective angle of attack on the local wing section when in yaw. In other parts of the wing it will result in a reduced AoA, but I guess those areas are not as important.



Bit like a swept wing, only not quite. :)

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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scarbs wrote: The horns were deleted as part oft e new rear wing package. The new rear wing profile, uses a Ferrari-like double dip profile. As the horns were used to improve the rear wing performance when the car is yawing (i.e. sliding – at an angle to the direction of travel), then we could presume the new rear wing performs better in yaw than the old wing and hence doesn’t need the horns.

Scarbs
kilcoo316 wrote:Yeap - the lateral inclination on the lower plane will result in an increased effective angle of attack on the local wing section when in yaw. In other parts of the wing it will result in a reduced AoA, but I guess those areas are not as important.

Bit like a swept wing, only not quite. :)
I think someone here

suggested that the horns might also have had something to do with airbox performance and/or managing the unsteady fluid dynamic effects around the intake towards the aft of the vehicle ... Took it as an interesting avenue of thought at the time but don't think it was explored much further then. Mustn't be the easiest of tasks as the system extends from the dynamics of the inlet trumpets all the way to the changes in flow towards the rear wing, know that it's been modelled somehow. Potentially slightly more rear DF to be gained in deceleration, though I'd guess managing unexpected disruptions at inopportune moments is more important (not to mention the internal dynamics of the airbox itself), if the effect is in fact big enough to be worthy of consideration.

I was a bit surprised that you think different flow directions affecting the wing in terms of yaw, as the amount of slide can't be very great, can it, in taking the vehicle forward at its most effective? What kinds of amounts of yaw are you talking about (~degrees in relation to direction)? And of course, not every tyre is in the same state of slide/friction through the corners so to what extent the yaw behaviour of the entire aerodynamical body can be predicted anyway? With enough accuracy that it's meaningful within the "desired" yaw? Seeing the regulation induced spoon shapes in front wings (and shapes that seem to bear some relation to those in the rear) I've certainly tried to imagine forms that could produce "more" DF in curves than on straights by the way of different AoAs in relation to the changes in the lateral direction of the flow.

The trouble of course is that any potential aerodynamical effect is a reaction that follows from the steering at which point the friction state might've well already changed and any DF "gain" would be to no avail. Are there more advantages that follow from flow states that continue through the turn rather than from the moment of change itself while it occurs? It's interesting to imagine where the limits might be, in terms of physics as well as in terms of designers' current capabilities. Intuitive guesswork this, at best, but there you go.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Through somewhere like becketts - F1 cars can have yaw rates in excess of 50 degrees per second.


Although as the pivot is the rear axle centreline (assuming zero slip), there is a very small movement arm to the rear wing.


But whats the typical slip angles? 3 - 5 degrees? at 150 mph thats a lateral velocity of around 6m/s - not entirely insignificant (well, in F1 where the margins are so fine).

scarbs
scarbs
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I think its fair to say that aero testing and finding solutions that work at all attitides (i.e. yaw, roll pitch heave etc) is the greater focus for teams nowadays. I have been told (by Miek Gascoyne IIRC) that in a straight ahead attitude cars arent getting that more efficient, its the other attitudes where the gains are beign made......
Side winds are the other effect teams often test for, I recal that the tables on most tunnels has a rotation of 10-20 degrees, so I woudl expect at lower speed at least cars can get nearer 10 degrees yaw.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Also - they don't really want downforce in a straight line... well... they don't want the drag associated with the added downforce in a straight line. :)

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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scarbs wrote:I think its fair to say that aero testing and finding solutions that work at all attitides (i.e. yaw, roll pitch heave etc) is the greater focus for teams nowadays. I have been told (by Miek Gascoyne IIRC) that in a straight ahead attitude cars arent getting that more efficient, its the other attitudes where the gains are beign made......
Side winds are the other effect teams often test for, I recal that the tables on most tunnels has a rotation of 10-20 degrees, so I woudl expect at lower speed at least cars can get nearer 10 degrees yaw.
Especially in the age of engine homologation, that sounds like the most logical approach. Ten degrees yaw seems like a lot if one hasn't thought of yaw as a very important variable before, but judging from many drivers complaining about the effects of wind this year, different conditions do appear to have a significant effect on the dynamics. Could it also be that concentrating on "multidynamic attitudes", unexpected side effects from gusty conditions are on the increase i.e. we could also get a "wrong" kind of sensitivity?
kilcoo316 wrote:Also - they don't really want downforce in a straight line... well... they don't want the drag associated with the added downforce in a straight line. :)
Something worth remembering, that. I don't know if the current cars are yet anywhere near what could be achieved by an "undeformable" object under the current regulations in reducing drag on the straights and increasing DF while cornering. But adjustable aero is set to change that equation in a few years.

Thanks for your answers, both. Now let's see if BMW's gonna ditch their horns, too ...