BMW & Williams under investigation!

naknak_56 · Post 22 Oct 2007, 08:20

I loved Rons comments when interviewed after the race about being sporting in defeat ....then he decides to take the WDC to the courts after the most contentious season in a long time and the fact that the FIA should have DQ'ed his drivers in the spying scandal.
Well done Ron why dont you just drag F1 through the mud 1 more time in a season where its been in the news for all the wrong reasons

Sawtooth-spike · Post 22 Oct 2007, 08:33

Ok guys just ask yourself these 2 questions.

1: If you where Ron would you do the same?

2: If it was the other way around, and ferrari could win it for this reason. Would they do the same?

By the what the answer to both these questions is yes.

It suck that this is how this season end. But If the Cars are ilegal then, thats not anybody else fault other than the teams.

oh just to mention 1 little thing that that i know is going to p*** a few people off. But at the Start of the season the ferrari (and other teams) had an ilegal floor, which they were asked to change, but ultimatly they were unpunished. Now BMW and Williams are running ilegal car (fact), and the FIA are going to hand out no punishment again. Am i the only person who can see that thats wrong on so many levels.

Next season, i really hope the politics is left behind so we can see, a season a as close as this one

mahesh248 · Post 22 Oct 2007, 08:34

This is ridiculous and , wont be fair on kimi if they strip the title and give it to Ham ... really sad.

mahesh248 · Post 22 Oct 2007, 08:36

who knows about the Fuel temperature in Hamilton s car , and it mite be some common reason , why all four cars had same fuel temperature ,

bizadfar · Post 22 Oct 2007, 09:02

Sawtooth-spike wrote:Ok guys just ask yourself these 2 questions.

1: If you where Ron would you do the same?

2: If it was the other way around, and ferrari could win it for this reason. Would they do the same?

By the what the answer to both these questions is yes.

It suck that this is how this season end. But If the Cars are ilegal then, thats not anybody else fault other than the teams.

oh just to mention 1 little thing that that i know is going to p*** a few people off. But at the Start of the season the ferrari (and other teams) had an ilegal floor, which they were asked to change, but ultimatly they were unpunished. Now BMW and Williams are running ilegal car (fact), and the FIA are going to hand out no punishment again. Am i the only person who can see that thats wrong on so many levels.

Next season, i really hope the politics is left behind so we can see, a season a as close as this one

you are ridiculous. It was NOT illegal at the time. They found a loophole just like Michelin did in 2001-2003 and exploited it. The rules changed and became more stringent which then made it illegal. Sick of repeating this

I can't help to think that you said this might "piss" people off people you tell false rubbish to satisfy your own views.

dumrick · Post 22 Oct 2007, 09:51

bizadfar wrote: you are ridiculous. It was NOT illegal at the time. They found a loophole just like Michelin did in 2001-2003 and exploited it. The rules changed and became more stringent which then made it illegal. Sick of repeating this

YOU are ridiculous. The rules were never changed, only the test was changed because Ferrari found a way to cheat the test (no deformation until the test's force, plenty afterwards).

Sick of repeating this: there is a conceptual difference between a rule and a conformity test

Sawtooth-spike · Post 22 Oct 2007, 09:57

No need to make an attack on me, I am making my Point, which i feel is Valid and i will not be Bullied by somebody to see it otherwise, if you want to pick holes in my points do so using fact an information and i will be more than willing to listen.
The Floor passed the Test, i agree there, but it was not within the rules as it is a moviable aerodinamic device. The Question you have to ask, is are the writen rules what governs the sport or is it the test? If it the rules then its ilegal, it its the test then it is.

This aside, The Williams and BMW are ilegal cars (the rules and the test say so) , and should be punished. Take there points away for that race, but leave the positions the same, Kimi still wins, And Cheating is punished.

timbo · Post 22 Oct 2007, 10:24

Hi! My first post here

Here's what I think of situation. In agreement with past FIA desicions Williams and BMW may be stripped from points in constructors championship. Drivers should not be punished. Otherwise Hamilton should receive punishment for extra tyre set used. Not to mention the whole Hamilton/Alonso situation.

On the other hand I think that current regulation (10 degree difference between fuel and ambient temperature) is utterly stoopid. What if ambient temperature is changing fast? If air heats up team may not be able to heat up fuel to be within the limitations (which I think was the case in Brazil). Otherwise, if temperature decreased fast team that would be able to cool the fuel faster would gain an advantage. In my opinion ABSOLUTE temperature of fuel should be goverened by the rules. Not a difference.

dumrick · Post 22 Oct 2007, 10:26

On a general note, this whole deal suits this championship right, and any championship in the last years, ever since the FIA started delibarately trying to influence the championship outcomes by a "stricter" and doubtful rule enforcement. Be it pro-Schumacher, pro-Ferrari or pro-Hamilton decisions (I've seen them all), when you start bathing on mud, the mud starts sticking to you.

I'm foreseeing F1's future with a huge lawyers fanbase and sites like "F1Technical" losing viewers progressively in favour of "F1Legal"...

dumrick · Post 22 Oct 2007, 10:33

timbo wrote:In my opinion ABSOLUTE temperature of fuel should be goverened by the rules. Not a difference.

Welcome here, Timbo.

To enforce a temperature difference makes sense, in a way that the sense of the ruling is to avoid teams to use means of cooling the fuel in the tanks to gain an advantage. To have the fuel at 18ºC has a different meaning at an ambient temperature of 19ºC or 35ºC. To enforce an absolute temperature would take the teams to have heating and cooling systems fitted to their tanks - outside and inside the vehicle - to control that temperature.

timbo · Post 22 Oct 2007, 10:57

dumrick wrote:
timbo wrote:In my opinion ABSOLUTE temperature of fuel should be goverened by the rules. Not a difference.
Welcome here, Timbo.

To enforce a temperature difference makes sense, in a way that the sense of the ruling is to avoid teams to use means of cooling the fuel in the tanks to gain an advantage. To have the fuel at 18ºC has a different meaning at an ambient temperature of 19ºC or 35ºC. To enforce an absolute temperature would take the teams to have heating and cooling systems fitted to their tanks - outside and inside the vehicle - to control that temperature.

From technical info avaible such systems are already installed on the fuel-rigs. Absolute temperature would mean that all the teams have the same conditions.

PS Ambient temperature is a tricky subject. You can measure it differently at different parts of the track. It may change rapidly. Absolute fuel temperature in the fuel-rig may be easily measured unified parameter.

dumrick · Post 22 Oct 2007, 11:18

timbo wrote:From technical info avaible such systems are already installed on the fuel-rigs. Absolute temperature would mean that all the teams have the same conditions.

PS Ambient temperature is a tricky subject. You can measure it differently at different parts of the track. It may change rapidly. Absolute fuel temperature in the fuel-rig may be easily measured unified parameter.

You are right about the "trickyness" of this, but this rule doesn't only and foremost apply to the fuel in the external tanks, but rather to it in the car, and that's probably exactly why there's a so huge tolerance as 10ºC.
My guess: every team conditions the temperature of the fuel in the rig to be just inside the tolerance.

timbo · Post 22 Oct 2007, 11:52

dumrick wrote: You are right about the "trickyness" of this, but this rule doesn't only and foremost apply to the fuel in the external tanks, but rather to it in the car, and that's probably exactly why there's a so huge tolerance as 10ºC.
My guess: every team conditions the temperature of the fuel in the rig to be just inside the tolerance.

I doubt that.
How can they take samples of fuel e.g. after first pit-stop from the internal tank? They probably could set-up a sensor in a fuel-tank, but in the press release it was quoted that FIA measured temperature of 'samples'.
On the other hand I think that usage of devices needed to maintain constant low temperature within a fuel tank would be problematic given the excessive amount of heat the engine produces (remember that solid CO2 cans used to pre condition cooling system before the race). There were once said that temperature at cockpit is about 50 celsius even at cooler track conditions.

PS read the end of an article
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/19

BitFarmer · Post 22 Oct 2007, 11:52

Hi all, my opinion on this is:

Ugly moves, politics, FIA interferences, rules not clear that can be applied depending on the situation... all this suck, and make we fans to dislike the whole F1 circus more and more.

Let the drivers run, sum the points, and if FIA is to punish someone, please do it based on clear rules, the same for all of them.

And just for he records: Hamilton problem with the car was a direct consecuence of his previous error in curve 4th.

After it, the left radiator got dirty with mud and grass, overeathing the electronic control unit of the gearbox, that failed (found at http://www.as.net and also commented during the race by De la Rosa, test pilot in McLaren, who was in the box on those moments and knew it for sure).

The 3 drivers deserved to win, for me, but McLaren don't. I have to admit that I was happy with their defeat: They haven't played fair -my opinion, of course- and they finally have what they deserved. Here in Spain we say: "You seed winds, you harvest storms".

axle · Post 22 Oct 2007, 11:56

Let s be honest here...

No one at Ferrari would hesitate to win the championship via the courts....so why should anyone else??

It would be harsh on Kimi, Rosberg...but rules are rules...

It looks like the FIA can't prove or disprove either way atm, but McLaren are certainly well within their rights to appeal as no one this season has hesitated to stick the knife in their back.