Ok, time for my KERS concepts...

[Conceptual]

Well, obviously this post doesnt matter, but I was thinking about it today, so let me discuss what I came up with.

Engine - Odd thinking on this one, so please try to follow...

Engine is a .6L boxer 2 cylindar turbo diesel. That 50-100HP engine would attach to a high efficience hydraulic pump to pressurize hyd fluid. Now here is the trick part, and if it is unrealistic, please let me know... The pump feeds a distribution manifold where 2 feed lines, and 2 return lines go to the nose of the car (more on that later), and another feed/return line goes to a hydraulic motor (Sauer Danfoss makes a 7000rpm/1800lb/ft torque motor) that is then jumped 3:1 creating 21,000RPM on the outshaft. Now the outshaft would plug into a diferential (follow me on this), and one side of the diff would feed into todays standard gearbox, while the other side would feed into an electric motor/generator. the front lines would operate 2 back to back motors that would connect individually to the front wheels by half-shaft.

So, the basic layout is understood. I understand that there would be alot of working the pieces to get them all lined up, and maximize the COG, but that is for the engineers...

Ok, so this is how it works. The Diesel engine drives the pump, and the pump drives the 3 motors independantly. The front will simply drive via trigers (think XBOX paddle) on the wheel, so the driver could completely control the rotation through corners. The rear motor would operate the differential directly. Now the differential would be where all of the magic happens. Since you would have 2 outputs for the diff, one with the gen/motor and the other to the gearbox, you could therefor drive the wheels, with the hyd and the electric motor for accel, and you could then on downshifting and braking use the electric motor as a generator and use the motors in the front as pumps to drive the rear hyd motor just to spin the generator, reclaiming the energy.

The trick is the ele/hyd motor combination. The electric motor could literally be used as a form of TC, as a RPM soak, and as an accelerator. If the hyd motor is producing way more torque than the car needs, you may see it spinning the generator as well as turning the wheels. The key here tho is the independently operated front wheels. THAT would be the greatest thing that I have ever seen on a racecar. Unfortunately, it would only serve to increase cornering speed, and we all know how much the FIA love that!

Anyways, a LiPo battery would replace half of the gastank area, the conglomeration of my pieces would need to be refined to fit inside the box, and since it is air cooled, the radiator ducts would shrink almost completely.

I have this thing about hydraulic drive systems, and I cannot for the life of me find the single point failure that keeps them out of production automobiles other than a lack of ACTUALLY MAKING ONE.

Anyways, my daydream is all here for you guys to poke holes in, so please feel free to do so, patching those holes will give me something to think about tomorrow!

Chris

[flynfrog]

the hydrostatic motors are pretty inefficient

[Conceptual]

the hydrostatic motors are pretty inefficient

I found some that are pretty efficient:

http://domweb.sauer-danfoss.com/domdb/S ... r-2006.pdf

But isnt that the whole point of this? Making them mandatory for the teams to use, pump about $1Billion into making them better over the next 5 years or so, leading to more road-relevant technology...

If efficiency is the only argument against this, I would say that is a pretty weak argument. No offense to FlynFrog, but that Sir would be the entire point of a KERS system... To increase efficiency to as close to 99.999% as technologically possible.

[Conceptual]

BTW: Hydraulic drives would not need carbon/carbon breaks, so better aero efficiency of the sprung mass?

[Carlos]

That's not a Kinetic Energy Recovery System - That's what KERS stands for.
K = Kinetic
E = Energy
R = Recovery
S = System

Thats a 2 engine car with 1 motor driving the rear wheels and 1 motor driving a electrical generator and hydraulics.

The key is the "R'
I think that .6L turbo diesel engine generating 50>100 HP might not ordinarily be considered "Recovery". Now can it?

It's the basics that bite
That might be considered a "hole" in a KERS I'd say

The revised Formula 1 stipulates a single engine, 2,4 L with 8 cylinders in a V configuration and a KERS.

[mx_tifoso]

That was simply great Carlos.

[flynfrog]

BTW: Hydraulic drives would not need carbon/carbon breaks, so better aero efficiency of the sprung mass?

Have you seen the size and weight of they hydrostatic motors you are talking about?

there great for heavy equipment where weight and size is not a factor.
Also how do you plan to dissipate the amount of energy carbon and carbon breaks get rid of in that system

Electric would be a much better choice. there are much greater losses in a hydraulic system than an electric.

And efficiency's are a big deal. We could have three men turning cranks that re fed by grain grown from a light powered by the regintive breaking system using water and co2 from the tail pipe but it would have like .001% effeicncy

and oddly enough I did some Lean work on those motors you posted

[mahesh248]

this is a regenrative system , is int it ? , the ideas can be thought about , the mathamatical modeling is the tough part . Hmmmmm

[checkered]

Well, obviously this post doesnt matter, but I was thinking about it today, so let me discuss what I came up with.

I can appreciate

what you're trying to achieve with this. But I agree with Carlos, especially on your title, it is very misleading. You're inspired by what KERS could stand for, but actually try to do one better. KERS is a flywheel system attached somewhere along the car's transmission and by FIA's definition nothing more (see the previous threads about KERS, hybridisation, energy recovery, etc.). Your suggestion has more to do with the "imagining a better motorsport series" thread you started the other day.

For me, the value of your post is in highlighting the efficiency aspect, and questioning where and how energy could be put most efficiently and/or be recovered to the best effect. I too, am a fan of hydraulic systems (among others). I recognise the value of output/recovery flexibility you, by implication, advocate. But that is a very complex system to solve mathematically, though, and I'm by no means convinced of all its merits since you're not making a very differentiated approach in terms of dividing things into recoverable and unrecoverable operations.

These are problems not unique to Formula One and I also feel the perspective you took served as somewhat of a distraction. Mechanical complexity generally adds to inefficiency. You envision employing a large variety of engines and motors, whereas at least part of what you're striving for can and will be achieved by optimising those engines and motor in themselves.

Perhaps you would gain some insight in studying what kinds of forces currently are needed, in a very general level, to propel F1 cars around the track. You need some baseline values, you need to decide if that kind of performance is what you want or is it relevant to anything you deem as valuable in terms of racing, or sustainability, etc. I've found F1 to be a pretty convenient vehicle to reflect upon. Meanwhile, it is certainly beneficial if people highlight different interesting technologies here and suggest possible uses, potentials and benefits thereof.

Take a little time to consider and study the contexts on this messageboard, though. Consider it as an exercise in keeping our "collective mind" in working order. Leaping from KERS to what you actually were after was somewhat of a stretch for all those who've made some conscious effort to understand KERS as it is defined in F1 presently.

[Carlos]

checkered
Your post jogged my memory about a hydraulics device Ciro introduced; the hydristor .. he even prompted it's inventor to kindly post a comprehensive explanation how it functions. Can't remember the thread but have a link to the company. It's such a brilliant innovation.

http://www.hydristor.com/

[modbaraban]

Can't remember the thread but have a link to the company. It's such a brilliant innovation.

http://www.hydristor.com/

Here's the thread:
viewtopic.php?p=41475#41475

[Conceptual]

I appreciate the replies, let me see if I can clarify some things.

The recovery aspect is there, be it by pressurizing a storage tank to using the front motors under braking to drive the rear engine and turn the generator. I see where my post was obscure on that point, so thank you.

And about making if for F1, I would like to say that I personally have zero interest in making anything F1 specific. I would just like to see a general (road) prototype in action, and allow the F1 teams to develop the efficiency through a race application. I think that in most automotive aspects that our view of tomorows road technology is made possible by standing on the shoulders of Formula One engineers. The gentleman that mentioned the weight of the motors, coupled by the complexity and inefficiency of a system like this, I would like to say that I agree with you, and my hope is that if a KERS system becomes mandated in F1 that these exact points become the top priority of improvement for the corps of highly intelligent and well educated F1 Engineers.

I can build something like this at home with available materials. Obviously, it is the cost that is the most prohibitive, but prototyping is always like that.

Oh, and I meant a .3L 2 cylindar turbo diesel, since the driveline only needs between 50-100 HP.

Anyone out there with the equipment and knowhow (and funding) want to take the challenge of making something like this at home?

Chris

[checkered]

The recovery aspect is there, be it by pressurizing a storage tank to using the front motors under braking to drive the rear engine and turn the generator. I see where my post was obscure on that point, so thank you.

It's still

obscure, I'm afraid. Three separate means of conserving, gathering and retaining energy meant for propulsion: Diesel fuel in a tank, a battery for electricity and a pressure container of some sort? I'm sure you're well aware that for all means and purposes, hydraulic fluid is incompressible? I felt it necessary to point that out, though, since one could've easily gotten that impression from the composite of your posts. So I'm assuming that the compressed agent is a gaseous substance.

And about making if for F1, I would like to say that I personally have zero interest in making anything F1 specific ... I think that in most automotive aspects that our view of tomorows road technology is made possible by standing on the shoulders of Formula One engineers.

I for one think Formula One engineers are better off not being told what they can and can't do. Some manufacturers' F1 operations are intimately tied with their larger R&D efforts. These days, F1 is as much about materials science, aeronautics, electronics, software, etc. as road technology. And that's mostly a good thing. Much can be planned, designed and solved but sometimes for innovation - you've just got to be prepared for it.

The gentleman that mentioned the weight of the motors, coupled by the complexity and inefficiency of a system like this, I would like to say that I agree with you, and my hope is that if a KERS system becomes mandated in F1 that these exact points become the top priority of improvement for the corps of highly intelligent and well educated F1 Engineers.

You haven't read up on KERS much as of yet, have you? It is being mandated, but just the other day, the FIA technical consultant Tony Purnell had this to say about integration: "Obviously if the teams were to redesign their engine blocks they could incorporate KERS in a much neater way. But this is hardly necessary. And as recent experience has shown, any opportunity to touch the engine is opening up a Pandora's box full of potential expenditure."

I can build something like this at home with available materials. Obviously, it is the cost that is the most prohibitive, but prototyping is always like that. Oh, and I meant a .3L 2 cylindar turbo diesel, since the driveline only needs between 50-100 HP. Anyone out there with the equipment and knowhow (and funding) want to take the challenge of making something like this at home?

Of course we could all use a spare mil or two, all the time in the World and all the resources neatly delivered to our doorsteps. Perhaps it'd be a more logical route to pitch one's ideas in some venture capital forum to achieve that. I'm not greatly interested in walking through very general suggestions and considering their merits until they've ended up as workable products, though. Doing that would amount to stuff not entirely unlike what people are actually being handsomely (or at least sufficiently) compensated for, whole hordes of people in fact. It's another matter altogether if the project is clearly defined as open source or nonprofit. Offering support in a project also means, by definition, that the support doesn't exceed the original effort, of course, lest the support become the main effort.

It'd make for a nice little World, though, to be able to walk up to someone and quite rationally make the following request: "You wouldn't mind terribly if you solved global warming for me? Great, I'm gonna have myself a cuppa, then." Oh well, I'm being cynical here, aren't I? Please don't mind that too much, I just felt tempted to show attitude having gone through personal experiences that have changed my disposition towards seemingly off-hand requests.

[Conceptual]

It's ok. There may be more to learn, and better places to voice these ideas.

Any links to a forum that is more in line with my persona would be very welcome.

Chris

[Carlos]

Chris - A site dedicated to introducing conceptualized meta proposals with a community of innovators that strive to make them a reality in an open ended, open minded supportive enviornment for technological imagination, brainstorming and speculation. A perfect supportive site for you. I wish you every success and you may be right that F1Technical is too specific for your wide ranging conceptualization. I read this site often for mind expansion and it's general technological whimsy. Inspiration and confirmation that a child's open mindedness is also an adult's playground & the possiblity of advances in technology - no matter what!!! Plus it makes me laugh a lot!!! With envious incredulity!!! Never, ever from ridiculing the sincerity of each and every post. Such insight and humour!!!
http://www.halfbakery.com/category/Car

Her's an actual example of the child leading the adult. My neice was 2 years old when she came up with an idea every bit as conceptual as yours & just as good. A genius idea " I want to take my bath with my clothes on." What a concept!!! Personal hygiene ... replacing a washing machine ... saving resources and the world!!! It was just too bad she was too young to file for a patent at the time!!! Yes your right - I was too ethical to steal the brillant idea and file for myself. I'm that kind of guy. Don't call me a Saint !!! I'm not worthy!!! A genius idea from a person who could barely talk !!! A vocabulary of under 200 words but that didn't stop her!!! She shares another characteristic with you - she's always asking for money but will settle for spare change!!! What flexibility!!! She can teach you something!!!

Hey look what a great fit this is for you Chris - a thread on "what the heck do we even use poppet valves in the ICE when we have much better ideas - Sheesh - World Eat Our Dust!!!
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Rotary_2 ... 1173392745

Let's 86 the Intake Valve http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Let_27s_ ... 1155722240

Chris - If you ever need help in researching this kind of stuff - I am available for well under 1M . I'll do it for a mere $1000USD per link cause you impress me as the kind of guy both willing to ask for big bucks and pay big bucks out for the same kind of effort you offer. Paypal and certified checque accepted in advance as a retainer - minimum 2 K.
Thanks and looking forward to working with you cause you are the kind of guy who just isn't talkin the talk!!! But walkin the walk!!! Now that's the right stuff!!!

Chris - Just look at the absolute quality and focus of the link I got for you - those are freebies - just to show I produce results. Together ... your goin make me a lot of money!!!

zzzzhere's my favourite - Trully a worthy Conceptualization
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Mood_20Car#1091034000