Anhedral used in racing

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CassonWest
CassonWest
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 09:27

Anhedral used in racing

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I have run into plenty of readings where the word "anhedral" is used, but unfortunately I have not found a good explanation about what it actually does. Based on pictures of diffusers, I notice it is an angle change, but other than that I have no real insight as to what it might do. Can anyone help me with this? Also, where are some popular sections on race cars that use anhedral?

Thank you

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Poly-hedral means many planes, for example. Like in polyhedron.

Di-hedral means two-planes. Thus, dihedral wings are at an angle (when seen from the front). This confers stability to the vehicle when rolling (the vehicle centers itself if you release the stick).

Dihedral wing. The tips are higher than the center of the wing.
Image

An-hedral, strictly speaking, means no-planes. I've seen old books (in spanish) that use that term for flat wings. All the english speaking books I've seen use the term for negative angled wings, that is, the tips are lower than the center of the wing.

So, in english books, anhedral means the wing has a downward angle (while in spanish this would be called negative dihedral wing).

Anhedral wing. Tips lower than center.
Image

Anhedral (in its english meaning, or negative dihedrals, in spanish) takes away some stability from the plane. It is used in planes that have a high wing. The center of gravity of those planes is below the wing, so you have stability by what is called the "keel effect". In many combat planes you don't want to have too much stability, so you use an anhedral wing, to make the plane more agile.

Most formula one front wings, at least the late ones that I can remember, are polyhedral, that is, they have many angles.

I suspect those angles are to improve the interaction of the flow of air with the body, but I'm not sure at all.

Rear wings have no angle (by regulations, I think, but I'm not sure either), thus they're called "anhedral" where I live and "zero-angle wings" in UK/US (and heavens knows in how many countries more).

How these angles in the front wings interact with the car when turning, perhaps to improve rolling stability, beats me. I'm sure other members can help us here.

Take in account that racing car wings work "inverted", thus, when seen from the front, what seems to be an anhedral is a dihedral and viceversa.

So, if you see a downward wing, thinking in reverse and concluding that it is a dihedral, you would think it would help the car to "counter-roll" a bit (or maybe a lot, I don't know) in curves.

I have no idea if dihedral angles create larger tip vortexes in the wings or maybe a larger drag. I would think that they diminish the "effective" span of the wing, because (I imagine) the lift forces they create are at an angle to the body.

So, my amateur conclusion is that, unless rolling is a problem (and I can think of more efficient mechanisms in a car to counteract rolling), I don't know why would you use them in a car for stability only.

Please, take in account that all this blah, blah, comes from my years of building airplane models and what I've learned as airplane pilot.
Ciro

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Read here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedral

On F1 cars you can see that front wing is curved dihedral. However, that is not to gain any additional stability, it is just a side-effect of current regulations. Central section of the wing is aloowed to be lower that the tips, and the lower the wing the higher is its efficiency.

Ouch, Ciro was faster! :)

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Thanks guys - thread poster and answers. This is exactly why I visit F1Technical - =D>

I learned something today; better than that I learned about a question I didn't even know existed :oops:

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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The rear wing is anhedral by design normally but I have seen a few rear wings this year that aren't. Honda tested one in Monza I believe.

I think next year all rear-wings will be anhedral purely because of the length of the aerofoil but we shall see.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

CassonWest
CassonWest
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 09:27

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Okay, thank you guys, the information is definitely pointing me in the right direction. So, basically I am getting that if I make the diffuser on my team's Formula car anhedral, angled inward in this case, it will reduce stability but increase menouverability. I guess perhaps, depending on speed of course, that the angles of anhedral are quite small. If anyone has a range in degrees for the anhedral angle, let me know. I am doing a wind tunnel test in a month, so this will be something I want to look at.

Thanks :D

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Well, I'd guess that, compared with the lateral forces of the tyres, the "manouverability" increase would be small, same goes for the lateral "roll back" momentum you'll get, compared with the spring stiffness. Anyway, please, keep us informed on the effect, it would be nice to have an idea of the numbers involved.
Ciro

Aerodynamicist#1
Aerodynamicist#1
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Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 23:32
Location: UK

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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On aircraft dihedral or anhedral is used for lateral stability. I'm guessing that the same principle applies to F1 wings??

CassonWest
CassonWest
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 09:27

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Ciro, I will be sure to do that.

Aero, in this case it seems so. In F1, the diffusers are slightly angled in towards the center of the rear end.

I'm assuming that the gain in maneuverability increases as speed increases, especially around quick corners. After thinking about it now though, I'm wondering if such a thing as anhedral will play any kind of role on our small, autocross formula car. The operating speeds are around 30-60 mph. I will keep looking into it though.

Please keep posting ideas, they are great!

Thanks

Aerodynamicist#1
Aerodynamicist#1
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Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 23:32
Location: UK

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Hmmm I think that at that sort of speed, you will still have a small effect, but you'd have to be at the stage where you knew your cars handling characteristics so well as to be able to notice the change. Of course maybe do it anyway if you think it will help and the psychological effect will make you drive faster lol. I've just read a book on winning in motorsport lol so not my most technical answer!

Gecko
Gecko
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 20:40

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Dihedral and anhedral in car aerodynamics have very little to do with car stability.

Stability for a plane with dihedral comes from the following: if a plane is rolled it starts a sideslip, and the wings in dihedral then tend to reduce the roll via the sideslip, stabilizing the plane. BTW, Ciro, it's one of the common misconceptions that high winged aircraft are more stable due to a keel effect; the stability actually comes from the interaction of airflow between the plane body and wings.

A car does not experience that sort of a motion. The anhedral or dihedral of wings on a car is therefore more to do with either vorticity distribution and therefore reduction of induced drag (for rear wings) or with regulations (front wing).

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Thanks for making that clear, gecko. I mean, about the pendulum effect not being relevant. Do you have any references? Everywhere I turn I see the same (apparently wrong) explanation.

As I already said, I imagine that the effect of a dihedral on a turning car must be minimum compared with other forces. However, the car is turning. Doesn't that turning rate induce some kind of forces on the wings? I know that an F1 car has a very stiff suspension, but it must roll something and the downforces are huge, so even a small imbalance must be felt somehow. Please, keep it simple, give us an explanation that even a Vicepresident could understand. ;)

I know what a sideslip is but I couldn't understand your explanation even if my life depended on it. Well, I see the words, I follow what you mean, but I can not imagine what's happening.

I've thought all my life (without any rational basis, pure intuition) that the rolling effect on turning depended on a differential lift force, because the forces of the wings were at an angle with the plane. An image would do miracles for dummies like me.
Ciro

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Gecko wrote:Dihedral and anhedral in car aerodynamics have very little to do with car stability.

Stability for a plane with dihedral comes from the following: if a plane is rolled it starts a sideslip, and the wings in dihedral then tend to reduce the roll via the sideslip, stabilizing the plane. BTW, Ciro, it's one of the common misconceptions that high winged aircraft are more stable due to a keel effect; the stability actually comes from the interaction of airflow between the plane body and wings.

A car does not experience that sort of a motion. The anhedral or dihedral of wings on a car is therefore more to do with either vorticity distribution and therefore reduction of induced drag (for rear wings) or with regulations (front wing).
Indeed. Even for the front wing. Actuals end plates are sometimes higher than the 15cm regulation limit. Teams tend to concentrate the most downforce generation on the central section and limit the net force on the outerboard sections to limit induced drag.

Next year the inverse will be done, the central section is neutral and even lifting and all the downforce is on the outer flaps. That's why the wing will be wide.
The end plates will be a bit higher (10cm instead of the 7,5) i presume to reduce wing tips vortices either by providing a kind of winglet and/or decreasing the loads there.

Gecko
Gecko
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 20:40

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Thanks for making that clear, gecko. I mean, about the pendulum effect not being relevant. Do you have any references? Everywhere I turn I see the same (apparently wrong) explanation.
I'm afraid that, much like explaining lift, there's just no very simple and correct explanation to do so. You are right, almost any reference on the web promotes the misconception that the location of center of gravity with respect to the wing is what causes the stability. After a bit of searching, I only found this reference:

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/roll.html#s ... -slip-roll

It has nice pictures of how the air flows around the fuselage in sideslip, and how the flow around the fuselage changes the effective angle of attack of wings on either side of the fuselage in both high and low wing configurations.

It's also easy to understand why the popular explanation is wrong. The plane does not pivot around the center of lift; for any rigid body, it is the torques with respect to the center of gravity that matter. If a plane is symmetric and not in sideslip, when looked head on the lift vector is on the axis that goes through the center of gravity regardless of whether the wing is mounted high or low. There is therefor no stabilizing or destabilizing torque that would occur just due to the position of the wing. As explained in the above link, the actual explanation is somewhat more involved, but fascinating.

CassonWest
CassonWest
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 09:27

Re: Anhedral used in racing

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Well, that makes way more sense I guess. Our handling characteristics are relatively good. 1.6 lat g, 0-60 in 3.2 sec. Our ground clearance is about 1.5 inches. The suspension on our car is improving every year, HOWEVER! this is not a new technology, F1 car we are speaking of. I would say, based on the roll examples of your airplanes, that if F1 designers were given more room to play with the diffuser, less anhedral would be used, but our car is different. I guarantee you that our F2008 rolls far more than any professional racecar, mainly due to the fact that it's designed by students, and raced on an autocross course. With that, I honestly do not think it would hurt to test something like that. I wouldn't test it in the wind tunnel, but on the track, maybe. I have driven it plenty, and it does roll. Our roll center is low, but not THAT low.

So, applied to the "perfect" suspension, the idea may be busted, but with a rolling mobile, it's possible perhaps. I can always give you guys the results in the coming months too.

Totally loving the discussion, so thanks to all of you. Very helpful and insightful thinking.