KERS - what if?

[alexbarwell]

Maybe just a brainstorm, but as KERS recovers energy and imparts some braking effort, then can re-deliver that power, is it viable (rules/effort/cost) to make it provide some traction/launch control? If a driver lights the tyres up off the line (this loss of traction akin to a skid?) then if the charge mode of KERS is engaged to draw down this excess power delivery and make recovery of traction sooner, then re-deliver that power progressively once traction is restored. Another what-if being if KERS is fitted to each wheel or driveshaft giving independent/interacting control of drive at each point. Have the electronically biased torque diffs been banned yet?

[joseff]

That's really interesting, but teams choosing to do so won't be able to recharge while braking, and thus waste more fuel. Anyone remember the Prius vs M3 on Top Gear? The one where the Prius spends more fuel going round the track?

Another thing to consider is whether your flywheel/battery/supercapacitor/unobtanium energy storage system can charge at the max rate of 60kW. Anything less than 60kW can't be very effective at traction-controlling.

[WhiteBlue]

KERS is under SECU control. The FiA would stop any program using unwanted TC.

[timbo]

Having a massive flywheel in the system would help to smooth out bursts in RPM. But I think in that respec normal engine map would suffice.

[pipex]

KERS is under SECU control. The FiA would stop any program using unwanted TC.

Yup, i think that the FIA will not want something like implementing traction control with this. But already, i don't think that the SECU can do everything that is needed to run the system. Considering that the SECU should handle a lot of sensor inputs, add to this the sampling time, control and switching of the electronics at a rate near 20kHz, and all this should be attended by the interrupt routine of the CPU. Maybe its necessary to use a standalone unit, controlled by the SECU in some fashion, and this interface will be standard.
And consider that the battery needs special charging controls to prevent overheat, overcharging and things like that.
Apart from this, i think that is very possible that some team will found a loop hole somewhere, to implement some system of this kind. As joseff pointed out, they will need to check if the input-output energy restrictions allow this kind of implementation.
If we don't consider the limitations for a moment, nothing prevents in the control of the motor/generator to provide a torque that will counteract the one going from the wheels, its only a change in the control zone of the motor. But this will be against the need to store energy, so you would be effectively burning energy, not saving it with the braking. Maybe it can be switched freely from T/C mode, and push-to-pass modes with a button?.
From what the news say, BMW is already tinkering with this kind of T/C system. We will have to see the first implmentations of this systems to understand more what the teams have found that works.
I think that the system has a specific location in the drivetrain, and because only one motor can be used (from the mounting parts of the rules) the two wheels can only be controlled in a coupled fashion, but i'm not too sure.

Regards

[Conceptual]

I guess my question is if they can incorporate some sort of Perendev principles into the flywheel of the engine, and use it as a torque increase/faster RPM increase...

[pipex]

Hi Conceptual, i didn't knew anything about that Perendev devices... do you have a link that discusses the theory behind it??? from what i found it works with permanent magnets. Well, this field of permanent magnet motors is already very interesting, but i don't think that Perendev device works, looks like another perpetual motion device.
In a side note, permanent magnet motors are already starting to being used in a lot of applications, replacing the induction machine. Even, the Magneti-Marelli unit is a kind of a synchronous permanent magnet motor, and from what i remember, the unit in the Honda Insight is a hybrid between a flywheel and a permanent magnet rotor...
Maybe something along the lines of the insight can be done to implement some kind of engine braking, but i think that to implement it modifications to the engine need to be done, or not?. Maybe only the transmission will need modification, i don't really know

Regards

[Ian P.]

If the KERS is being charged during braking then there is a real opportunit to use the KERS system to limit rear wheel locking and permit a much different brake bias system. This was a feature of TC that many teams (not BMW btw) used in the past. Completely within the rules, no ABS but TC used in reverse so to speak.
The KERS computer or control system would regulate energy recovery to the limit of wheel speed. If one wheel or both showed abrubt changes. then it could back off o the loading. Sounds simple and totally unconnected with road car use, but Max is setting this sort of thing up.

I understood that the KERs system could not be charged up during the warm-up lap effectively negating its effectiveness for starts. Has anyone heard of this limitation....??