Eliptical engine cylinders

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hecti
hecti
13
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

I know/think its illegal to have a cylinder block with anyting but cylindrical pistons, but would an elliptical piston cylinder work. You could potentially save space on larger applications (ie v10 or anything bigger) or for space constrained engine compartments.

Have we not seen anything like this because nobody is willing to take the risk of sinking lots of money into an idea that could be flawed?

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

Honda did oval pistons in a few bikes a long time ago. Sealing the cylinder wall is a pretty big issue

http://world.honda.com/history/challeng ... tonengine/

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

http://world.honda.com/history/challeng ... xt/05.html

Key problems in the team's engine design included the gear train and valve system. In the former, a reduction gear was initially used to turn the cam at half the rate of crank revolution. However, since it had been a source of frequent failures, a normal cam-reduction gear train system was adopted. Still, the problem refused to disappear. Numerous options were tried, after which the team came up with the idea of a rubber damper that would mesh with the cam gear. Fortunately, the design was a success, allowing the valve system to turn properly. Moreover, it resulted in higher power output.

Additional areas of concern were the over-effectiveness of engine braking and a sudden burst of power when the throttle was opened (the so-called "bang"). The problem of engine braking was quickly resolved through the use of a device called a "back-torque limiter." However, the team couldn't find an absolute solution for the "bang."

The NR500 improved slowly but steadily, thanks to the team's dedicated effort. In 1982, their 2X modified engine achieved 135 horsepower, and in 1983, a 3X unit demonstrated output of 130 horsepower. The oval piston engines were at last on par with their rivals, at least in terms of output.

Despite their enhanced output, the performance of Honda's engines was not so impressive on the track. Even though the Honda team earned a victory in the 1981 Suzuka 500-Kilometer Race using an oval piston engine, that was to remain their only triumph. The World Grand Prix series was an ongoing struggle.

Weight was a major handicap. Since the four-stroke engine required a larger cylinder head, its weight was greater by around 20 kg. The added mass surrounding the head also affected the machine's center of gravity and overall balance. Measures were taken in order to reduce weight, including the replacement of iron with titanium and aluminum-already a light material-with magnesium. However, the precious improvement gained was quickly lost, as Honda's rivals began using the same approach.

Other measures were taken to save weight. These included a reduction in the thickness of the outer crankshaft, which was subject to a relatively minor dynamic load. Often, before a race, the staff would labor overnight, grinding the parts with a pencil grinder. Still they were unable to overcome the weight disadvantage. It was a problem that would not be completely solved until a successor to the NR500 could be built.

Three years had passed since Honda's highly anticipated return to the World Grand Prix series, but the NR500s had yet to win a race on the international circuit. Still, no losing streak could last forever, and Honda knew it. There was increasing pressure, both in Japan and elsewhere, for Honda to take the checkered flag.

As a compromise in the effort to get on the winners" podium, in 1982 GP series Honda introduced NS500 machines powered by two-stroke engines. The NS machines gradually replaced the NRs and, with that, came to play a dominant role on the world stage of motorcycle racing.

The 3X engine was developed in 1983 as the last of the (oval piston) competition series. The 3X certainly had sufficient potential to win the World GP race, with an impressive 130-hp/19,500-rpm output. However, the remarkable results of the NS500 machines kept the 3X machines on the sidelines, shelved away in the pits. Finally, Honda decided to take the 3X off its roster of race machines without ever giving the engine a chance of competing.

"Although it couldn't win a race," said Yoshimura, "the 3X was very close to the complete form of an oval-piston engine, achieving more than 95-percent maturity."

The development staff could, after all, achieve the engineering target it had set at the beginning. The experience, however, had left them with a deep sense of frustration.

"The engine was designed for racing," Yoshimura said, "so we wanted it to be a winning design. If we had won at Laguna Seca, we could have been content with that and put a more peaceful end to the engine's racing history."

In reference to that, the engine did indeed have a chance of winning at Laguna Seca in July 1981. It was not a World Grand Prix race, but it was nevertheless an important event. During the race Freddy Spencer, riding his 2X, led Yamaha's Kenny Roberts for quite some time. Although Spencer ultimately retired with an electrical problem, it was a race that amply demonstrated the 2X engine's potential. Spencer's brief but powerful domination had assured the development staff of the NR500's potential, and despite all the hardships it was a lasting reminder of their effort and its ultimate value.

The NR500 concept was succeeded by the NR750, a commercial bike released in 1992. In fact, the back-torque limiter and other technologies evolving from the NR500 development saw their way into many mass-production Honda machines. The most precious outcome of the experience, though, was the spirit of challenge that was kindled by the original development staff and passed on to a new generation.

Reminders of the many trials involved in NR500 development have found a place in the hearts and memories of everyone involved. Until recently, in fact, a drawer in Yoshimura's desk contained damaged connecting rods and broken valves, which came from assemblies that fell apart during early bench tests.

"Every time I saw those parts," Yoshimura recalled, "they reminded me of the enthusiasm we had during development. They reminded me of a hotel in Nasu in the dead of winter, where we wrapped ourselves in blankets as we drew layouts because the heater wasn't working. I remember our excitement at finally having completed the drawings. Of course, they also brought back bitter memories from those races."

From its comeback in World Grand Prix with four-stroke engines to the creation of oval piston engines, Honda continued setting high goals and fostering the spirit of challenge in every aspect of development. The wealth of new technologies now possessed by the company is in no small part a result of these efforts.

"To create anything, you must put your heart and soul to it," said Yoshimura, in nostalgic reflection on those days. "The development of oval piston engines impressed that upon me, as well as on the other young engineers."

The parts are now gone from Yoshimura's desk drawer. They were given to young development staff for use as reference materials in future endeavors. Yet, those parts are pieces of a dream that Yoshimura hopes will grow in the hearts of his successors and again drive them to new innovations.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

The NR500 was a very interesting piece of engineering. But it originated because of the regulations. For that class, four cylinders were the maximum. Honda believed that a V-8 would deliver more power, and thus they began a weird engineering exercise. Because the NR500 engine was basically a V-8 with cylinders joined to each other instead of round pistons, they came up with this...

Image

Image

This design was driven by a requirement to design a competitive racing engine. Honda engineers went "outside the box", and were innovative in their interpretation of the regulations.

It's almost impossible to improve on the round piston. It has over a century of development and maturity. It is relatively simple, cheap to manufacture, and reliable.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

hecti,

Just a minor correction: The F1 reg's allow for pistons of any shape you want. But the cylinder bores, on the other hand, must be circular.

If you can somehow figure out a way to make an oval profile piston work in a circular profile bore, than the rules would allow it. #-o

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
Moderator
Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 10:51
Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

Also to note that HRC did not want to have to use a smelly 2 stroke engine and so wanted the most power from the 4 stroke.

It is a peachy design..superb =D>
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:Also to note that HRC did not want to have to use a smelly 2 stroke engine and so wanted the most power from the 4 stroke.

It is a peachy design..superb =D>
Bit of history. Honda entered international motorcycle racing in 1959, and enjoyed spectacular success with their revolutionary four-strokes in the 60's. In that era, the common concept was to have a single cylinder, but with refined flow characteristics. Honda went a different route, by going after RPM. Multiple cylinders, four valve heads, all in an effort to allow the engines to reach revolution limits previously unseen in this sport. The NR500 came out in 1979, and they leaned toward a four stroke design because of their historic success in this engine type.
Only after a few futile years trying to make this concept work, they had to go to plan "B" and develop a light, nimble, two-stroke (which was a huge success).
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

nickfos
nickfos
0
Joined: 04 May 2009, 05:10
Location: Qingdao

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

**
Last edited by Steven on 20 Jul 2009, 09:28, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Not sure what this post had to do with elliptical cylinders
I like F1, I am from a forging company that provide forging parts for F1 cars. http://www.forging-company.com

Conceptual
Conceptual
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

riff_raff wrote:hecti,

Just a minor correction: The F1 reg's allow for pistons of any shape you want. But the cylinder bores, on the other hand, must be circular.

If you can somehow figure out a way to make an oval profile piston work in a circular profile bore, than the rules would allow it. #-o

Regards,
Terry
I know that you may have been joking on this, but it deffinately sparked something in my mind...

If you could make oval pistons that held circular rings, wouldn't that add displacement to the swept volume of the cylinder?

Althought, that would technically make it larger than the specced 2.4L....

Michiba
Michiba
4
Joined: 28 Apr 2008, 08:58

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

Conceptual wrote:
riff_raff wrote:hecti,

Just a minor correction: The F1 reg's allow for pistons of any shape you want. But the cylinder bores, on the other hand, must be circular.

If you can somehow figure out a way to make an oval profile piston work in a circular profile bore, than the rules would allow it. #-o

Regards,
Terry
I know that you may have been joking on this, but it deffinately sparked something in my mind...

If you could make oval pistons that held circular rings, wouldn't that add displacement to the swept volume of the cylinder?

Althought, that would technically make it larger than the specced 2.4L....
wouldn't you lose compression like that?

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

Michiba,

The reason the rules require a circular bore profile and not a circular piston profile, is because all pistons are not truly circular (or cylindrical) in shape at room temperatures. While all engine bores are honed to a perfect circular shape, pistons are always machined with a tapered and barreled profile top-to-bottom, and with a cam profile in plan view (around it's outside diameter), at room temperature. However, at operating temperatures and combustion pressure loads, the piston assumes a true circular and cylindrical shape.

Thus, if the rules required a circular piston shape when inspected at room temps, no piston would be legal.

With regards to the Honda NR oval piston engine, have any of you figured out how they managed to finish hone the oval bores of those engines? Some one told me how Honda does it, and I was very impressed by the cleverness of Honda's engineers.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

As a mechanical engineer, I have always been intrigued by the legend of the oval-piston Honda, but never gotten so much info to dwell on.
I can fully appreciate the phenomenal production challenge of such a contraption, try to turn something oval in the lathe?
But what was the true bearing idea, remember having read something about superior valve-area, can that be correct?

What was the mathematical cross-section model and how the hell did the scrutineers measure the true cylinder volume?

Please enlighten me as this is most faschinating.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

The cylinder bore is not elliptical, but two half cylinders joined by a rectangular section (when viewed from above).

Image
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

Thanks DK, I guess I didn't pay the attention I should have given to the previous material. I got stuck with the term "eliptical", which mathematically is something different than what's on this picture. Don't relly know what to call that shape?

Still impressive, but far less so.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Eliptical engine cylinders

Post

I consider this effort by Honda as very impressive. Imagine, they took the rules in place, and attempted to design an engine that produced superior power by innovative and imaginative design. If ever the term "thinking outside the box" is to be applied, this is a great example.
I'm sure it was a tough battle, but the engineers involved must have really enjoyed the challenge in front of them. What really blows me away is how they overcame the sealing problem. I would love to know the history and development path required to make effective piston rings.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.