Safety Hysteria

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wondergoblin
wondergoblin
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Joined: 27 Apr 2009, 00:54

Safety Hysteria

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For all the hysteria starting to develop about the Surtees and Massa accidents, there is one thing people are forgetting:

The main issue is not about debris entering the cockpit (as tragic as the consequences were). That was the freakish consequence.

It is about what happens to parts falling off cars. That was the cause.

Let us not forget that since we are talking about freak accidents, those parts could have ended up in the crowd and killed and injured a number of people. After all, it looks like the stewards realised that, and reacted when they saw Renault not fix the wheel properly (and completely overreacted with a race suspension, but let's not go there...)

So why are we not discussing (let's call it) part retention?

As a former racer myself (20+ years before the bank manager said no more), I am interested to hear from those with an engineering bent on what can be done.

Is it unreasonable or impractical to have more parts tethered, like the hubs are? What parts?

For example, my favorite engineer (who still looks after my road bike for me) used lockwire or a zip tie to hold the spring onto the shock to make sure it stayed as a unit. But he was trained by the Air Force and took a belts-and-braces approach to safety, and the only loose nut in his cars was, well, me. :roll:

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
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Re: Safety Hysteria

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No. Next...
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dave34m
dave34m
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Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 10:46

Re: Safety Hysteria

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Yes you are correct, a lot more could be done to stop bits falling off a race car but will more be done, maybe not. It would hard to know where to stop.

On the suspension for the tyre coming off, they got that completely correct. A 1 race suspension is fully deserved. IMO

wrcsti
wrcsti
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Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 04:46

Re: Safety Hysteria

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No matter what device you use to hold something onto a car, in a sever crash it will most likely fall off due to the high stress onto the cars. It would be way easier and cheaper to build an interface to protect the driver and crowd separately than to retain parts from flying off.

wondergoblin
wondergoblin
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Joined: 27 Apr 2009, 00:54

Re: Safety Hysteria

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Quoting Ross Brawn elsewhere on the site:

"The damper was still there, only the spring was gone; the cup had come off and the spring had escaped."

The "escape" could easily have been prevented by locking the spring, or the cup.

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Safety Hysteria

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And how would you propose to tie up the deer that hit C. de Matta and nearly killed him?

It is not hysteria it is common sense... there is only anti-safety hysteria on this board.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: Safety Hysteria

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ISLAMATRON wrote:And how would you propose to tie up the deer that hit C. de Matta and nearly killed him?

It is not hysteria it is common sense... there is only anti-safety hysteria on this board.
More importantly how would you propose to stop that? --- happens and to go batshit crazy over this is ridiculous.

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Moanlower
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 17:57
Location: Belgium

Re: Safety Hysteria

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What happened too Surtees and now Massa is very rare and also a coincidence that it now happened twice in a week. Racing won't ever be 100% safe. No use in freaking out now and thinking about covering up the cockpit or banning teams for making an error and losing a wheel..

By the way, I really hope Massa gets well soon. Never thought I would say this but I really started to like the guy. Great person and eventually a great racer.
Losers focus on winners, winners focus on winning.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Safety Hysteria

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FFS, People die in tin-tops surrounded by full FIA spec rollcages in freak accidents - it's motorsport, it's part of the risk of being a top driver and F1 is no different!!!

Case in Point: Ashley Cooper who died of brain and internal injuries sustained during a high-speed crash at the Clipsal 500 meeting in Adelaide in 2008.

It was just a freak angle that he hit the wall at and it killed him despite being in a right hand drive car and the impact on the left side of the car + he was wearing a HANS device!

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Safety Hysteria

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if we were to take your stance djos then no advancements in safety would have ever been made, because everything can be considered a "freak accident" and learning anything from them would be "safety hysteria"

yes accidents will always occur in motorsports, but it should be taken as an opportunity to learn and improve, but there are some changes that need to be made just for safety's sake. a closed cockpit(even semi closed) seems to be one of those changes.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
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Re: Safety Hysteria

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ISLAMATRON wrote:if we were to take your stance djos then no advancements in safety would have ever been made, because everything can be considered a "freak accident" and learning anything from them would be "safety hysteria"

yes accidents will always occur in motorsports, but it should be taken as an opportunity to learn and improve, but there are some changes that need to be made just for safety's sake. a closed cockpit(even semi closed) seems to be one of those changes.
That's not my point Islam at all, my point is you cant engineer out freak accidents - hence the term "freak".

Sensible precautions should always be taken but some folk here are advocating silly things like bubble canopies for open wheel cars to guard against "freak" accidents!
"In downforce we trust"

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Safety Hysteria

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djos wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:if we were to take your stance djos then no advancements in safety would have ever been made, because everything can be considered a "freak accident" and learning anything from them would be "safety hysteria"

yes accidents will always occur in motorsports, but it should be taken as an opportunity to learn and improve, but there are some changes that need to be made just for safety's sake. a closed cockpit(even semi closed) seems to be one of those changes.
That's not my point Islam at all, my point is you cant engineer out freak accidents - hence the term "freak".

Sensible precautions should always be taken but some folk here are advocating silly things like bubble canopies for open wheel cars to guard against "freak" accidents!
Things flying around on the track are not freak, this weekend alone we saw a spring, a wheel fairing and a tire/wheel combo... just like Imola '94 there multiple signs that some things needed changing, this weekend is similar, thankfully we didnt lose another young brazilian to have to learn that lesson.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: Safety Hysteria

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djos wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:if we were to take your stance djos then no advancements in safety would have ever been made, because everything can be considered a "freak accident" and learning anything from them would be "safety hysteria"

yes accidents will always occur in motorsports, but it should be taken as an opportunity to learn and improve, but there are some changes that need to be made just for safety's sake. a closed cockpit(even semi closed) seems to be one of those changes.
That's not my point Islam at all, my point is you cant engineer out freak accidents - hence the term "freak".

Sensible precautions should always be taken but some folk here are advocating silly things like bubble canopies for open wheel cars to guard against "freak" accidents!
+1 Bubble canopies are a step backwards in my opinion. Especially with explosive blot releases. That negates any improvement from having a canopy. Tony Kannan had to exit a car on fire in todays race, mind you with a canopy it's highly unlikely fuel would have gotten to the cockpit and ignited, but had that canopy been stuck while he was on tack and it caught fire it would be a totally different situation. Even a few second stuck in a burning car without a way to get out without outside help is not good. The car could be engulfed in flames to the point it might take 30 seconds or more for a saety team to get to him and put the car out, and 30 seconds of breathing those fumes could very well be enough to severely hurt him.
Last edited by Ray on 27 Jul 2009, 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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djos
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Re: Safety Hysteria

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The sensible option would be a return to proper windscreens like they used to have on indy cars that would be attached to the current removable side protection device - these would at least deflect any objects ove the car and away from the drivers head and be easily removable in an emergency.

eg:
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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Safety Hysteria

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that we can definatly agree on