Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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Many years ago I read a book by Auguste Piccard ("Au fond de mers in batyscaphe", "To the bottom of the sea in bathyscaph") where he call the attention of the reader to the fact that a mockup of a dolphin in a flow tank creates eddies that a real dolphin doesn't.

He goes on explaining that "(a dolphin) must have nerves under its skin with extreme sensibility that play the role of manometers which allow him to discover when an eddy is starting to develop. Then, with an appropriate movement of his skin, he neutralizes the recently formed eddies".

Have you ever met Piccard? If you read Tintin adventures, perhaps you've met him. Also, Star Trek fans know his grand-grandson, Jean-Luc.
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I don't know if Mr. Piccard was right and if his explanation of dolphin Cd has been superseded, btw.

However, what if there were new mathematical tools that allow you to develop a car, a plane or a submarine that could be "fitted with sensors that will help them adapt to these (Lagrangian) structures"?

So, for those who are not up to date, allow me to introduce what's a Lagrangian coherent structure.

The general idea is this one: there is already a "nice repertory of tools to tackle time-independent and time-periodic systems" for engineers. On the other hand, we've lacked good tools for analyzing time-dependent dynamical systems. As I understand the problem, we depend on numerical solutions to solve these kind of systems, using CFD, for example.

Dynamical systems, generally, follow this couple of vector equations (t being the independent variable, time):

The first equation states that the derivative of one parameter x (position, for example) is equal to another parameter v (speed). The second equation says that the position at time zero is the initial position.
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Those of you that studied differential equations know that those equations traces curves from the time t0 to the time t. These curves are called the "flow map".

The flow map is defined as :
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Now, let's see an example: this is a pendulum to the left of the image and its "manifold" to the right. The blue curve separates the stable movements from the unstable. Here you have the stable movement; the purple dot marks the movement inside the manifold:

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If the pendulum moves "over the top", you go into the unstable portion of the manifold, into the red curves region, like this:

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Now, time-dependent dynamical systems have those zones of distinct behavior. The lines that divide those zones are called "separatrices" (from the latin word for separate) because particles at different sides of the separatrices will follow different paths. This is a picture of separatrices and the particle paths at each side of them:

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Those separatrices are called Lagrangian Coherent Structures. You can use finite time Lyapunov functions to solve them. Here you have an example of a flow over a GLAS-II wing:

GLAS-II wing: an interesting topic in itself, perhaps somebody can explain to me why aren't they used in F1 (I guess they qualify as active aerodynamics, but, hey, we already have active front wings)
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Real GLAS-II wing, 1942 vintage: it's not precisely science fiction
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Finally, I get to the point: shouldn't CFD packages use these Lagrangian Coherent Structures to define the grid for simulations, instead of small squares? After all, you know they form a kind of impassable border for particles (although these borders fluctuate all the time).

I understand (and I might be wrong) you could use this "natural" grid to enhance the speed of computations. In the end, you could have a skin with sensors, actuators and a computer, so Mr. Piccard dream of an active submarine that imitates a dolphin could become a reality.

Here you have the article that gave me the idea: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/scien ... ef=science

I apologize in advance for any aerodynamic barbarisms that I could have introduced in my half-digested readings and for the digressions in my redaction.
Ciro

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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We are still away behind the dolphin but have developed a flexible, aero elastic wing controlled by computer.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news ... -DFRC.html

hecti
hecti
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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I just started doing PDEs today...
if you like doing hours of maths on end, then great, this is for you, but honestly would you really use this over a computer.
Just my thoughs

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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damn you ciro I will now spend the rest of the night reading obscure articles online again. I could be doing other things like watching people being hit in the nuts on youtube :o

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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Carlos wrote:We are still away behind the dolphin but have developed a flexible, aero elastic wing controlled by computer.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news ... -DFRC.html

Subtly different.



The US Navy have looked at compliant surfaces (which is what Ciro is on about) to try and replicate a dolphins surface and reduce BL drag.


Google with key words "drag reduction compliant", and you'll find a load of information.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Finally, I get to the point: shouldn't CFD packages use these Lagrangian Coherent Structures to define the grid for simulations, instead of small squares? After all, you know they form a kind of impassable border for particles (although these borders fluctuate all the time).
If you are working on a particle basis (more akin to Lattice-Boltzmann), then you do need to keep track of a large number of particles (I think).


Admittedly, its something I'm not fully versed in (although I really should be!), but usually, if it seems too good to be true...

DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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hecti wrote:I just started doing PDEs today...
if you like doing hours of maths on end, then great, this is for you, but honestly would you really use this over a computer.
Just my thoughs
I am tempted to reply "because it is good for your soul". More seriously, though, if you & your friends all have the same attitude, who is going to develop the next generation of the computer software you are so keen to use...

hecti
hecti
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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DaveW wrote:
hecti wrote:I just started doing PDEs today...
if you like doing hours of maths on end, then great, this is for you, but honestly would you really use this over a computer.
Just my thoughs
I am tempted to reply "because it is good for your soul". More seriously, though, if you & your friends all have the same attitude, who is going to develop the next generation of the computer software you are so keen to use...
Ohhh thats a good one, i think i'll leave that up to my friends over at software engineering, they seem to be good at those things.

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Lagrangian coherent structures - A new CFD tool?

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Ciro,

Is this the type of iterative, natural "optimization" application for CFD or structures that you're talking about:

http://www.optimalsolutions.us/solutions/index.php

We've used it for some CFD analysis models where I work. It doesn't give you a perfect solution, but it does provide guidance on how to modify your aero profile or structure for best efficiency. It's fairly intuitive to set-up and use, but it requires lots of processing power and time to get a result. And as I noted, the results are not just "plug and play". The resulting "optimized" surface mesh topology is usually quite crude and unrefined. So you have to take those results, study and interpret them (or clean-them-up), so they are applicable for your FEM.

Sculptor is a very impressive piece of code, but it is not yet quite as "seamlessly integrated" as their vendor would lead you to believe.

Give it a try if you have the chance.
Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"