autogyro's Transmission Concept

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autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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I am really jealous now you have shown me that zero shift site.
All that investment and I have something that is probably two centuries more up to date,
JEEEES.

mike
mike
2
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: Australia, Melbourne

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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sorry autogyro please start another thread, although im very interested in what you have to say, you are completely off topic

is you gear box a 2-step system? like a input-intermediate-output?

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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mike wrote:sorry autogyro please start another thread, although im very interested in what you have to say, you are completely off topic

is you gear box a 2-step system? like a input-intermediate-output?
No it is not a 'two stepped' system, it is not a dog engagement box and has no selectors at all.
It is has only one shaft and only the need for ONE support bearing.
It has not clutch of any sort.
Draw a shaft and ponder on that, or get me a meeting under confidentiality.

Why am I off topic? The technology surrounding the questions asked is relevant I would have thought. Ratios can be changed within restrictions in the regulations.
The basic gear train used in F1 has hardly changed since the first GP. Materials and computers have allowed the components to be made lighter but any further reduction in weight is controlled by current regulations, as is the size of the gears. It is amazing and a bit sad to consider that in a racing formula supposed to be the pinnacle of human engineering, it is still current practice to use almost exactly the same gear concepts used in the 1800,s.
No wonder we have yet to get a proper handle on global warming and energy efficiency.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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xxChrisxx wrote:
wunderkind wrote:Thanks Pierce89

Hoe does the ratcheting pre-selection mechanism work? Also, with regards to a transmission having to last for four races in 2009, how did engineers optimise the gear ratios for four different tracks with different characteristics?

Cheers
They can change the gear ratios whilt not in parc ferme.
Ratchet shifting is almost the same as used on a motor cycle and is mechanically sequential, with the option of electronic control over hydraulic and or pneumatic operation.
Current incorrectly described sequential, is a contrived sequence of shifts using a gear selection barrel capable of selecting any gear sequence but restricted by regulations and the demands of computer control systems. This is to take into account such things as brake balance and the requirements of energy harvesting with Kers systems.

Zero shift is not an automatic system but a clever design of selector fork/ engagement dogs, that speeds up and smooths gear changing between two different layshaft gearbox gear sets.

mike
mike
2
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: Australia, Melbourne

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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Weismann shift mechanism with bike shifts?

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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autogyro wrote:I am really jealous now you have shown me that zero shift site.
All that investment and I have something that is probably two centuries more up to date,
JEEEES.
Ok. You keep pushing this invention of yours. You claim you've talked to F1 engineers or whoever, that say it's feasible.

If it was really any better than the "centuries old" system in place now, you'd have an investor.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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Jersey Tom wrote:
autogyro wrote:I am really jealous now you have shown me that zero shift site.
All that investment and I have something that is probably two centuries more up to date,
JEEEES.
Ok. You keep pushing this invention of yours. You claim you've talked to F1 engineers or whoever, that say it's feasible.

If it was really any better than the "centuries old" system in place now, you'd have an investor.
My system has been looked at by some of the top designers and engineers in F1.
To develop the system will take a very big investment, because the geartrain is completely different to current manufacturing practice and vehicle application.
This means that it cuts directly against all the current types of both racing, road, hybrid and electric transmission manufacture at all levels. A lot of companies and F1 teams/ suppliers do not want it to become available.
I am waiting for a major meeting however and if it is successful I will become silent until it is in production.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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In support of current layshaft gearboxes. Development in road vehicles and race cars has always mainly been aimed at the engine and the chassis/aerodynamics.
The gearbox has had little attention to the basic geartrain concept because any minor gains were offset by a major amount from 'improvments' in IC engines.
These IC 'improvments' were almost all at the expense of higher fuel use.
The current gearbox's are very reliable and practicaly ignored compared to other areas of the vehicle.
This situation of complacency is changing now and very rapidly. It is because of the demands from environmental issues and the need to radicaly improve fuel efficiency. The IC engine is almost at the end of any efficiency development and the essential improvments have to be found in other areas. The transmission is one of these prime areas of development.
A good gearbox can also improve the efficiency of a pure electric vehicle. Unfortunately, as in the Tesla developments, current gearbox technology in this case could only offer 2000 miles of use, so it was pulled out.
Time for a major change in gearbox thinking.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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mike wrote:Weismann shift mechanism with bike shifts?
Weismann is a clever roller method of manual gear selection.
It can be operated automatically much as any other conventional layshaft gearset and suffers from the same high loss of torque as all the others.
The Weismann unit is also heavy and bulky.

F1_eng
F1_eng
4
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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Let me know about your system and it's opperating principles, im pretty sure there will be reasons why it wont work for most applications.

That's the reason conventional gearboxes have remained largely unchanged, although there are interesting developments in recent times for road cars.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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F1_eng wrote:Let me know about your system and it's opperating principles, im pretty sure there will be reasons why it wont work for most applications.

That's the reason conventional gearboxes have remained largely unchanged, although there are interesting developments in recent times for road cars.
I have it on the highest authority that my system definitely needs to be developed.
It has already been looked at by some of the top people in F1 and they all found NO obvious reason for it not to be developed.
Please do not expect me to give you a full description of my system F1 eng.
Such things are not done in that way as you are well aware.

I am also a little miffed by your ability to give the impression that, you know it all. Perhaps you do, if you believe this to be so please enlarge on your statement concerning conventional obsolete transmissions.

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:31 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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autogyro wrote:
F1_eng wrote:Let me know about your system and it's opperating principles, im pretty sure there will be reasons why it wont work for most applications.

That's the reason conventional gearboxes have remained largely unchanged, although there are interesting developments in recent times for road cars.
I have it on the highest authority that my system definitely needs to be developed.
It has already been looked at by some of the top people in F1 and they all found NO obvious reason for it not to be developed.
Please do not expect me to give you a full description of my system F1 eng.
Such things are not done in that way as you are well aware.

I am also a little miffed by your ability to give the impression that, you know it all. Perhaps you do, if you believe this to be so please enlarge on your statement concerning conventional obsolete transmissions.
If you cant give us the detail other than it is way better than anything else then stop bringing it up. This is a technical forum not a find me an investor for my perpetual motion device forum.

You have brought it up in at least 10 threads. I am willing to bet my electric coupling that I haven't developed is just as good.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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flynfrog wrote:
autogyro wrote:
F1_eng wrote:Let me know about your system and it's opperating principles, im pretty sure there will be reasons why it wont work for most applications.

That's the reason conventional gearboxes have remained largely unchanged, although there are interesting developments in recent times for road cars.
I have it on the highest authority that my system definitely needs to be developed.
It has already been looked at by some of the top people in F1 and they all found NO obvious reason for it not to be developed.
Please do not expect me to give you a full description of my system F1 eng.
Such things are not done in that way as you are well aware.

I am also a little miffed by your ability to give the impression that, you know it all. Perhaps you do, if you believe this to be so please enlarge on your statement concerning conventional obsolete transmissions.
If you cant give us the detail other than it is way better than anything else then stop bringing it up. This is a technical forum not a find me an investor for my perpetual motion device forum.

You have brought it up in at least 10 threads. I am willing to bet my electric coupling that I haven't developed is just as good.
I was under the impression that this was a technical forum as well.
I shall not bother you any further.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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It indeed a technical forum. However, you're pumping your magical design like it's the best thing since sliced bread, while constantly putting down the standard gearbox as basically antiquated, stupid equipment.

You have an idea. It sounds like that's all it amounts to. Do you have a working prototype? Have you bench tested it for load transmission and durability?

Unless you've invented an entirely new type of gear, I don't buy the argument that there's something inherently extra expensive and difficult to manufacture.

Maybe it's truly a great idea. Maybe it's crap. My feeling is, if this was really so great as you play it up to be, you'd have an NDA signed with someone, and they'd be producing it. In the grand scheme of things it's not that expensive to prototype up an assembly.

In any event, until you've PROVEN that it exists and actually IS an improvement, there's no sense in hyping it up everywhere. Lot's of things are great in theory.. but reality is a different story.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

scarbs
scarbs
391
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Are all teams using double-clutch transmissions this season?

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It seems that F1 gearboxes do not clever mechanical systems to provide a seamless shift. F1 double clutch geabroxes are not banned per sé, but the team does need to prove that the 7 different ratios are engages individually, as a double clutch set up could be phased\slipped to provide all but a CVT like solution. McLarens DC was tried on the MP4-19, while Williams raced a DC in 2006 with horrendous reliability.
Nowadays the teams run a conventional 7 speed dog gearbrox, but with two seelctor drums, each one looking after alternate gears. thus one selector is engaging the next gear, while the other disengages the current gear. With a throttle lift or dab of clutch, the electronic\hydraulics phase the two movements into a seamless selection. Seems a simple solution compared to the mechanical mayhem of Weisman or Zeroshift.