autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.
autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

RH1300S wrote:Understood Autogyro - I wasn't comparing it to yours. The guy did say that they would be loading the system to measure the differences.
Testing transmissions is a bit more than applying input load and measuring the output differences RH1300S, I felt sure you would know this.
I built a test bench at one time with the help of Borg Warner Letchworth.
We were building prototype auto boxes and torque converters.
It was in the days before proper computers and was very complex.
No F1 teams or most gearbox companies have complete gearbox test facilities.
The trouble is that the basic layshaft and compound epicyclic geartrains have been used for over 100 years and the whole of the vehicle gearbox industry is based on these concepts even though they are over 100 years old.
Not very leading edge is it?

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Truthfully - I don't have a clue

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Of course they could throw away the gearbox and clutch altogether and replace it with an intigral unit that is both a seven speed gearbox and an energy recovery application unit for KERS. An ESERU in fact Electric Shift Energy Recovery Unit.
Gearboxes that just change gear are last centuries technology.
Last edited by mx_tifoso on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: From the Merc W01 thread.

alelanza
alelanza
7
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:05 am
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

MX you're quickly becoming my fav mod
Alejandro L.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

If you want to see a pdf of the ESERU scarbs let me know.

User avatar
machin
162
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:45 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Auto, I might be interested in your concept... but not for a car... just some info on my background: for the past decade I have been working as a propulsion systems engineer for a British maritime engineering company, building high performance vessels -mainly military projects, but also for individuals, (funds allowing!). I'm sure you're aware that in the marine environment hybrid arrangements are nothing new; we've been building them for decades, and utilising a range of prime movers -miniature gas turbines for example, together with huge 4-stroke diesels.

We are currently building a vessel which can power its propellers either by direct mechanical drive from a large 4 stroke diesel via a 4:1 ratio single speed clutched gearbox, or from a "small" (700bhp!) electric motor (powered from the ship's on-board power generation system) which feeds into the same gearbox via its own clutch and 8:1 gear ratio (it uses the same main gear, but a different pinion acting on it). The electric motor is sized for slow speed operation when the large 4-stroke would be very inefficient.

We sometimes use multiple speed gearboxes to enable peak power outputs of the prime movers to be used at different vessel speeds (e.g. for high speed and good acceleration)... or we use variable pitch propellers to do the same thing; enable the peak power to be available at different vessel speeds (but then we lose efficiency as the propeller is operating "off-pitch").

There's no real requirement for KERS on these projects since ships/boats don't really do much starting and stopping.

So, KERS aside, is your concept very different from our arrangements and do you think it would show advantages over the above arrangement I have described? We do not manufacture transmission components ourselves, but if there is a clear advantage to be had with your concept we can get one (or multiple) of our technology partner/suppliers to manufacture and supply the parts.....
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Hi Machin, interesting.
My ideas on transmissions certainly have some potential in marine craft.
I have some experience in the field.
Ken Wallis worked closely with Vosper Thorneycroft developing an intigral weapons to target system using the W116 light autogyro that included full military deck landings at sea. This gives a small patrol vessel too small to operate a helicopter to have available air support. Potential is still there!

I also worked with an inshore OZ catamaran team and developed a rover v8 turbocharged 400bhp outboard, drive leg and floatation system, also a gimbal transom to allow the engine to tilt inboard on the turns while keeping the surface prop thrust line level and outboard. Increased the turn rate markedly. Just needs funding.
Also a high altitude parasail for sailing boats to capture wind above surface limitations for a mastless sailing boat.

My ESERU would adapt for use in your outlined marine powertrain. The unit would be both multi ratio gearbox with no wear in disengaged gears or direct drive and would itself be the elecric drive segmented motor.(no need for seperate e-motor).
I also wish to develop an electric autogyro, which if operated from a small patrol craft would streamline the system and increase efficiency and range.

User avatar
machin
162
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:45 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

OK, well I am interested to understand more on the ESERU side, though as with many on here I won't hide my scepticism at the moment having pretty much no information to go on (understandably if it really is as good as you say it is). I understand from the earlier pages on here that you have submitted a patent, so you are effectively protected from IP theft, so would you care to send me more information on the concept? As there is no prototype we would need to construct a model in our evaluation software -A drawing and description would be good for this, and would be treated in confidence (i.e. not posted on here, or submitted to other parties!).

PM me if you want to discuss.

Cheers
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Williams had sight of my ESERU and have designed a superb rear end on the FW33.
It looks as if there is NO gearbox.
The geartrain on an FI car has to have a gear center measurement of 84 mm.
Does the FW33 have this?

User avatar
Chubbs
1
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:28 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

autogyro wrote:The geartrain on an FI car has to have a gear center measurement of 84 mm.
Does the FW33 have this?
how and why exactly is this true?

And are you stating that Williams are using your transmission design?
Chubbs

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Chubbs wrote:
autogyro wrote:The geartrain on an FI car has to have a gear center measurement of 84 mm.
Does the FW33 have this?
how and why exactly is this true?

And are you stating that Williams are using your transmission design?
FIA Regulations, gear center to gear center measurement must be no less than 84mm.
I do not know what geartrain the Williams is useing.
My ESERU has only one shaft and zero gear center to gear center measurement, so it has no measurement.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Interesting point.
This ESERU can be completely open to through airflow for cooling and a smooth flow to the rear of the car. With no clutch and a very small diameter and length it is far smaller than even the Williams geartrain.
It is not only a seven speed gearbox with NO gear movement at all in top gear but also the main component in a KERS system, eliminating a seperate motor generator.

User avatar
Lurk
2
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

bill shoe wrote:
autogyro wrote:Unfortunately my posting priveleges have been revoked Ciro.
Best I could do, sorry.

Oh go on then.

Image
Is this a drawing of the (in?)famous autogyro transmission? After a year or two of just words he actually posts some kind of drawing and we are not discussing it??

Actually, why is autogyro not describing it? Please say something to complement the picture, some description of how it changes gears. Reply in the "autogyro transmission" thread. I didn't see this image in that thread.
I'm taken the post en route but it seems that each gear is connected to the next via its planetary axles. "13" are the selectors. It you put the "13" on the 2 last gears (at the right), you're in neutral.
The last gear seems to be the reverse and kers gear. kers is connected via "19".
And "18" the crankshaft?

In fact what I called "last gear" is the nearest to engine while differentiel should be at the left.

I surely missed some tricks but: is it something like that or am I totally wrong?

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Image

1
Description

This invention relates to an improved method of converting input torque to output torque in a multi stepped gearbox and recovering energy from and applying energy to a power train.

The unit can be part of a conventional power train, a hybrid power train a kinetic energy recovery system or a full electric power train.

Conventional hybrid power train systems and kinetic energy recovery systems use a gearbox to transfer torque from the main input source, which is usually an internal combustion engine, to the output, torque from the gearbox goes to the drive axle or axles and additional gearing, transmissions, shafts and clutches connect a variety of electric engines and torque multipliers to this primary power train to harvest and apply electrical energy. The electric shift energy recovery unit (ESERU) here described needs no additional external components; with an electric control unit and an electric energy storage device it comprises a complete hybrid system or a kinetic energy recovery system.

The ESERU is a multi ratio stepped gearbox, suitable for vehicles and other torque transfer devices, comprising a number of gear sets
Figure: 1 (1-6), which can be selected independently or in combination, gear changes are made using electro magnetic energy eliminating the need for mechanical, hydraulic or pneumatic clutches and synchronizing assemblies.

The outer component of each gear set operates as a rotating part of an electric engine, using magnets embedded in the outer circumference of the gear set components (1-6) and the static parts of the electric engines (7) which are built into the gearbox casing (16). Electric energy is used to accelerate, decelerate and position components in the gear sets, to allow them to be unlocked or locked with electronic lockers (13), to facilitate the conversion of input rpm to output rpm, controlling the timing of the application of electrical energy and the force, produces a constantly variable and efficient transfer of torque from input to output of each gear set, giving a true seamless shift between a ratio of 1:1 of any locked gear set and the mechanical ratio of the gear set unlocked.






2
The electrical engines recover electric energy to storage from the power train during deceleration and apply electric energy from storage to the power train during acceleration and cruise and/or when electrical power transfer is demanded, eliminating the need for extra gearing between the electric engines and the power train in hybrid, KERS or electric applications and supply the required electrical power for gear changes in all configurations including conventional or full electric application.

Initial transfer of torque, to achieve propulsion and establish inertia in either rotational direction of the single output shaft (14), is achieved by applying electric energy to the electric engines of the gearbox, if another external engine is required to apply torque to the power train after inertia is established, the outer component of the first gear set (1), is brought to stationary using electro magnetic energy and electronic lockers (13), lock this component to the gearbox casing (16), the external engine is then capable of applying torque through this gear ratio to output.
Gear changes between gear sets is achieved by unlocking the engaged gear outer component from the gearbox casing (16), accelerating the outer component using electro magnetic energy, established component inertia and control over the input torque source, to bring the complete gear set to a common shaft rotational speed, locking this gear set, unlocking the next selected gear set, decelerating the outer component of this gear set to stationary, using electro magnetic energy and locking this component to the gearbox casing (16). A wide range of gear ratios and ratio combinations is made available using this operating method and torque application to the power train from both the gearbox electrical engines and an external engine is made available to output over a wide and efficient range.

The ESERU gear train comprises a variable number of planetary gear sets Example: Figure 1 (1 – 6), any one of the three components comprising the gear sets (8,9,10), can be chosen for torque input, any one for torque output and the remaining component locked stationary, giving a wide range of available ratios from a wide range of possible configurations.
The casing lockers engage with slots (18) on the outside of each gear set and the lockers within the gear train engage with corresponding slots in adjacent components. When a sun gear needs to be locked to the casing to achieve a gear ratio, a locker within the static support tube (18) is used.

3

The static tube is an extension of the gear case (16) and forms the main gear train support.

Example of engaged gear set Figure 1: Input from engine (12) through input shaft (11) and first gear sun gear (10), drives planet gears (9), which are forced to ‘walk’ around crown wheel (8), which is locked to the gear casing Figure 2 (16) by lockers (13), the output of the first gear planet gears (9) drives the input sun gear of the second gear sun gear (17) via the first gear planet carrier.

When not selected for use, the gear sets are locked together as one unit with no relative gear motion, giving zero gear torque loss at a ratio of 1:1 input to output, in direct top gear the complete gear train is locked at a ratio of 1:1 input to output, producing no gear torque loss from the complete gear train, the torque output shaft Figure 1 (14) drives the vehicle through a drive axle (15), or other torque transfer device in all gear combinations.

A sliding locker Figure 3 (19) is provided in most configurations, to allow the selection of disengaged gear train neutral.





4 CLAIM

1. A stepped ratio gearbox without hydraulic, pneumatic or mechanically operated clutches, synchronisers or ratio changing mechanism.
2. An energy recovery and application unit, being an integral part of a gearbox that eliminates the need for additional gear sets and the associated control and installation systems.
3. The electro magnetic operation of a gear set producing a seamless constantly variable change of gear ratios, while maintaining a smooth constant transfer of torque from input to output.
4. A method of torque application that eliminates the need for a direct engagement clutch, by establishing the vehicle or output device inertia prior to connecting a separate torque input device.
5. A gearbox without any relative gear movement in gear sets not ratio selected and in the whole gear train when direct top gear 1:1 ratio is selected, resulting in very low torque loss in use.
6. A hybrid gearbox unit that can be configured to replace most current conventional vehicle transmissions to form the basis of a more efficient, compact and lighter hybrid system.
7. A racing car gearbox including integral energy recovery and apply components, without the need for external gear units or electrical engines, making the unit lighter, more compact and more efficient for KERS applications and installations.




5


Abstract

Electric Shift Energy Recovery Unit

A gearbox unit including integral electric engine components 1-7 which are used for operating gear changes and for recovering electric energy from and applying electric energy to a gear train

Figures 1, 2 and 3 to accompany abstract
Last edited by autogyro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

Post

Lurk wrote:
bill shoe wrote:
autogyro wrote:Unfortunately my posting priveleges have been revoked Ciro.
Best I could do, sorry.

Oh go on then.

Image
Is this a drawing of the (in?)famous autogyro transmission? After a year or two of just words he actually posts some kind of drawing and we are not discussing it??

Actually, why is autogyro not describing it? Please say something to complement the picture, some description of how it changes gears. Reply in the "autogyro transmission" thread. I didn't see this image in that thread.
I'm taken the post en route but it seems that each gear is connected to the next via its planetary axles. "13" are the selectors. It you put the "13" on the 2 last gears (at the right), you're in neutral.
The last gear seems to be the reverse and kers gear. kers is connected via "19".
And "18" the crankshaft?

In fact what I called "last gear" is the nearest to engine while differentiel should be at the left.

I surely missed some tricks but: is it something like that or am I totally wrong?
Diff is on the right Lurk, first sun gear is directly connected to the crank.

To Ciro, I can only post in the off topic thread. I am not allowed to post anywhere else, apparently I bring up the electric issue to much.

So who is up for a feasibility study?