Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[Paul Oz]

I didn't say button was bad, he is quite good, but that's what made the retake even more dominating. Button is not being destroyed, but he is not looking equally matched to his teammate like the Massa and Raikonen pairing; the best driver pairing in a long while.
He wont be destroyed, he is too experienced. He can be outmatched though, which we are already seeing.

Agree.... there's no doubt Jenson is one of the best drivers out there - thinking back has he really been owned by a team mate at any point previously?
Lewis isnt exactly dominating Jenson - but there is no way he was going to win that battle, and I can't see him matching Lewis over the whole season.
Its worth considering that Lewis would be leading the drivers champs without that blowout that cost him 2nd....

[raymondu999]

Yes but we can't factor in "ifs." If Hamilton hadn't had the Spain blowout, yes, he would be leading. But then you have to factor in Vettel in Bahrain and Australia, collecting him 38 points lost.

[Paul Oz]

Yes but we can't factor in "ifs." If Hamilton hadn't had the Spain blowout, yes, he would be leading. But then you have to factor in Vettel in Bahrain and Australia, collecting him 38 points lost.

Was only factoring in 'ifs' because of a direct team mate comparison, but yep, get ya point. Anyone can have a tyre blowout though - not quite the same as a flaw with brake design

[raymondu999]

But you could see the rim fail... but then it's all ifs and buts. What if Lewis hadn't been hit by Webber then? What if in China he had the 2 pit stops like Jenson rather than having 2?

[thestig84]

It is now 1.1b Anyway it its a good service and should be kept. If you dont like it you dont have to use it. It never claimed to display all radio traffic. It is a way of keeping up with the race (like the live timing) from Mclarens view, maybe if you dont have tv access. They describe the race and provide info telemetry and webcam shots of the garage. Radio transmissions add to the info.

Its great to see a F1 team opening up. How can you expect them to put every bit of info up, a lot is boring anyway. I dont see any other teams offering open services like this.

Always someone ready to limp-in and defend those that are looking to make a monkey out of them. They tried to misrepresent the facts and make you look foolish. Some weird variation of Stockholm Syndrome or something I guess.

Insulting our inteligence with that clearly redundant and not fit for purpose endeavour, v1.0, v1.1, wake-me up when it hits 3.0 and stops trying to so blatently pull the wool over our eyes, or treat us like dopes.

Clearly they wont waste time insulting your intelligence as your cant even spell the word!

Do it ... or don't do it ... but don't waste people's time with a half-hearted, bland fiction of a PR nonsense.

What did they achieve by serving-up to their most active fans crude misinformation and a redacted, glossed-over mis-summary of the facts as they (and the guy in the FOM TV truck) knew them to be. Did they learn nothing from Ryan, the tapes will always get out. Attempts at obfuscation or post-race pitwall spin will always come undone.

The commentary provided is pretty lightweight, the telemetry numbers come heavily smeared via a random-number generator and are shorn of all context or comparison, pretty useless. And now we know for certain, the summary of radio-traffic is partial, minimal, deceptive and sub-standard.
I've got live streams and live-timing on the go, I can't afford to waste laptop-screen real-estate or valuable CPU clocks on something now proven in broad daylight to be utterly pointless.

For shame, they had the chance to do something right, do something good, be open, treat supporters with a modicum of respect, but too frightened, too timid, too corporate, they fumbled it. Outed as a pointless sham of service, it'll not be missed. They did it to themselves.

That's why I don't bother with it anymore. OK, you apparently seem quite content with it, so you stick with it, kept in the dark and actively deceived ... I'll just wait for something a bit nearer the truth to emerge a week or so later in a 3 and half minute pop-video. Like I say, shame.

Ignore Bernie, stream the audio, Mr Whitmarsh, you have nothing to fear. A bit of daylight will do wonders.

Wow I have never seen so much read into a system designed for fans. I hope its the last time a team bothers to do something for any fan with people like you around! I haven't heard them claim to provide anything like the services you are lamenting them for. Just take it for what it is and don't use it if you don't want to.

I will keep using it thanks, also I'm not to concerned with Mclaren trying to provide me with a weird variation of the Stockholm syndrome . Personally I cant see what your on about! :
Stockholm Syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.

[Paul Oz]

But you could see the rim fail... but then it's all ifs and buts. What if Lewis hadn't been hit by Webber then? What if in China he had the 2 pit stops like Jenson rather than having 2?

I said I get ya point! Jeez.

[feynman]

I will keep using it thanks, also I'm not to concerned with Mclaren trying to provide me with a weird variation of the Stockholm syndrome . Personally I cant see what your on about! :
Stockholm Syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.

I thought the reference straightforward enough. Your statment of the definition makes it clear, no?

McLaren race-team (either management or marketing) wilfully and consciously acted to deceive you - an act of omission, act of comission, same bag of bones. They had significant and relevant information available, germane to race strategy and vital to a proper understanding the incident, and kept it hidden from you, for no good reason. Made no mention of what actually transpired, left us all looking stupid, while they indulged in a confused, haphazard and dishonest smokescreen, that was always doomed to fail. (It's all on tape guys, duh, learned nothing from Oz 09, nothing?)

They kept you misinformed and without the facts, as they clearly knew them to be, for nearly a week, until an FOM edit-jockey shone some daylight onto what actually transpired. Don't you feel had? They took advantage of you.

Why would you have any respect for someone that shows so little respect for you? Why would you meekly and obsequiously defend someone that would so brazenly attempt to misinform and decieve you?


I am not a 'fan' of anyone, fans are ridiculous creatures. Blinkered, bitter and easily led by the nose, your apologist defence of those that so clearly let you down does nothing-much to change my mind.

There is a clear and present reason why fans are treated with such universal contempt and scorn by all that work in professional sport, they deserve it.

And rightly so, if they can't get off their knees and start requiring a new more adult and transparent relationship with teams, then they deserve all they get. They deserve to stand in the rain, get fleeced, turned-over, and have their leg lifted by spin, whitewash and painfully dishonest PR bollox.

Mushrooms, fed on bullshit and kept in the dark. v1.1b

[Paul Oz]

I am not a 'fan' of anyone, fans are ridiculous creatures. Blinkered, bitter and easily led by the nose, your apologist defence of those that so clearly let you down does nothing-much to change my mind.

There is a clear and present reason why fans are treated with such universal contempt and scorn by all that work in professional sport, they deserve it.

And rightly so, if they can't get off their knees and start requiring a new more adult and transparent relationship with teams, then they deserve all they get. They deserve to stand in the rain, get fleeced, turned-over, and have their leg lifted by spin, whitewash and painfully dishonest PR bollox.

Mushrooms, fed on bullshit and kept in the dark. v1.1b

Thats an over the top and to be honest offensive perspective IMO - and certainly 'blinkered'. Don't allocate your feelings with everyone else - nor assume that anyone that doesnt follow your views (the majority) are failed beings. Some 'fans' may be ignorant..... some of us may just choose to enjoy sport for entertainment. Personally - I find all this 'conspiracy' part of the entertainment!
My background is cycling.... where I can't believe one single result from any single race, covering all of my sporting idols going back 30 years.
This is nothing in comparison.
Every sport is, and will always be the same at world level. Take the most competitive people on the planet, incorporate world fame, multi million £/$ contracts..... what do you expect to happen?

[raymondu999]

I think he meant fan(boy/girl) instead of fan. Fans are great and everyone loves them

[thestig84]

Seriously I cant believe how over the top one person can get over a computer program that is there just to help cover the race. Just make sure you dont type in http://www.Mclaren.com over the next few races....you might explode!!

After all your ranting I still will have it open on one of my tabs.

[Richard]

McLaren race-team (either management or marketing) wilfully and consciously acted to deceive you ....

eh? Its a piece of PR from a commercial organisation. You seem to expect them to provide every single bit of telemetry data from every car? On that basis, why not criticise every other team?

[feynman]

Where do I say I want every piece of telemetry? Where do I say I want anything?

What I said, and I said it repeatedly to beyond the the point of redundancy, is that if a team says they wil provide radio traffic, then I expect them to be honest and follow through on that commitment.

Say what you will do, and do what you say ... not snow-job and bullshit us.

What is the point of the bland and facile traffic that they do deem to post. If we now know for certain that nothing of any substance will ever appear, what is the point, none, it is a pointless PR exercise for the gullible and credulous.
They had the full-story available in the truck and decided not to let their fans know it, they edited, redacted, omitted and self-censored, they actively decided to keep their own supporters in the dark, that was pretty dishonest and disrepectful behaviour.
That is my problem. It's not good enough.

Don't try and claim the kudos and plaudits for being open and reaching out to supporters, when your actions clearly demonstrate nothing has changed, you don't get to play it both ways; be open or be closed, but don't be bullshittin' me.

So, just to be clear, that, that right there, is my point, not telemetry. Dig?

If I have to rely, a week removed, on telescoped timelines and selective edits from an FOM video to even get half a picture of what was really going on, facts that the team management were in full possesion of, and I have a team trying and ultimatley failing to throw sand in my eyes, then I tend to take a very dim view of that sort of behaviour.

It's up to you, but I am surprised that you two guys are so content to be sticking-up for those that actively tried to take advantage of you.
Maybe it is just me, maybe I've just got a lower tolerance and threshold for people trying to make me out to be the sap, have it your way, but me I wouldn't want to keep getting played like that.

[Paul Oz]

Maybe it is just me, maybe I've just got a lower tolerance and threshold for people trying to make me out to be the sap, have it your way, but me I wouldn't want to keep getting played like that.

Or maybe its jumping to the assumption that people are trying to make you out to be a sap.... you really think its on purpose? You don't think theyve got better things to worry about?

[feynman]

Yeah, so like I said earlier ... deserve it.

Bullshitted to and loving it.

This is exactly why people in professional sport have nothing but contempt for fans. That is why they have to be forced by contractual obligation to endure signing sessions ... the sight of so many willing to fall-over each other to be treated as second-best turns their stomach, and rightly so.

They never got where they are, or achieved what they did, by being so feeble, getting willingly played for suckers, so they hate having to see it up-close in others.


My original observation, and despite attempts to distract, still stands pretty much unscathed: That you'd have to be "easily satisfied" to be happy with the distorted, thumb-on-the-scale, pure PR spin that is emitted from race v1.1b.
That is all. Some people are happy with it, enjoy propaganda, and apparently want to try and defend it, I'm not, so what's the argument supposed to be?

Team McLaren should either piss or get off the pot, either stream radio traffic unedited, or don't. Don't half-step, don't waste all our time, and don't try to pull any fast-ones thinking that we are mugs, you always get found out a week later when the tapes surface.

It seems a modest enough proposition.

[komninosm]

Both were told to save fuel and the radio transmissions to both were broadcast during the race coverage. Based on their lap times not really increasing and Hamilton being caught napping I am sure it was a coded message.

You really hate Hamilton don't you? [-X
In what way was Hamilton caught napping? It's not like he was followed by another team's car (like one might say Alonso got caught na napping by Schumacher and be half-right). You are totally wrong. You might say he was lied to, or that Button tried to cheat a place, but you certainly can't say Hamilton was caught napping in this case. :^o