New 2003 honda engine

[Steven]

From what I have read recently, Honda has switched to a 90 degree V10, in a bid to close the horsepower gap to the top teams. I have also heard that the ra002e suffered from vibration, due to the size of its V angle.
Would that be the start of the second Honda era in formula 1?

Edit:
hehe one more thingy you may want to know: Patrick Head is picking on former Williams aerodynamicist Geaffrey Willis. It's all because of his work that the aerodynamics weren't very good in 2002, Head said. That's easy now, demotivating the people at BAR a little...

[Senna_FAN]

I've been speaking to a lot of people and doing a lot of research. Apparently, the Honda engine of next year should be one of the best engines on the grid. Last season at Suzuka, Honda's engine was doing well over 870 hp (see Autosport article) making it the second most powerful engine in F1 (next to the BMW P82). I'd bet that their engine for next year would be producing more than 900hp at more than 19000RPM, just like the BMW. Also, the vee angle on the engine is still not clear, I've heard 90 degrees and 94 degrees.

[Jukebox]

Senna_FAN, i don't think that honda would be one of the frontrunners this season but they would probably lead the midfielders. Having achieving 870hp dosen't mean that it would not have reliability problems. Engines in the past had to reduce their hp due to some problems

[Jukebox]

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:20 pm Post subject: New 2003 honda engine

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From what I have read recently, Honda has switched to a 90 degree V10, in a bid to close the horsepower gap to the top teams. I have also heard that the ra002e suffered from vibration, due to the size of its V angle.
Would that be the start of the second Honda era in formula 1?



Yup Tomba, wide spread V angle would suffer from vibration, but got to love what Renault are doing. They have lowered the center of gravity and is one of the best chassis, but they had compensate with lower hp output

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[Senna_FAN]

To Jukebox:

The new Ra003e is already around 20 kgs lighter than last year's engine. The reliability of the engine has improved somewhat, and the hp/rpms would match the USGP spec BMW p-82. Thus, this should give Honda the ability to compete with the top 3 teams, given that they have a good chassis.

[Steven]

To Jukebox:

... the hp/rpms would match the USGP spec BMW p-82. Thus, this should give Honda the ability to compete with the top 3 teams, given that they have a good chassis.

well... suppose there are all facts you base this text on, I would honostly say that this amount of power will not be enough to consider them a top3 team... I guess Ferrari is already past that hps, BMW is certainly, concerning the very very positive critics about their new engine, and more so, I think Mercedes have made an extra effort this year... I find it suspiciously quiet there

then there is still Sauber with a relatively high support from Ferrari.
Besides that, Honda should be able to compete with Sauber, around 4th place ... at least I hope!! (you all know I'm a JV fan )

[Senna_FAN]

Firstly, the Ferrari engine will not improve that much in terms of HP. Ferrari's philosophy is very different from other manufacturers. They intend on making an engine faster without increasing the hp, which hence results in greater speed without the sacrifice in reliablity. That is one of their main concerns, reliability. I'm sure next year's ferrari v-10 will be able to exeed 19000 rpms, but I'm not sure if the engine will, because of reliability problems. Simple things like decreasing cylinder length, Ferrari's clutchless transmission, etc., allow the engine to be faster without a gain in hp. Secondly, the Honda engine was already more powerful than the Benz at Indy and Suzuka, and based on the amount of development work Honda is putting into its engine (not to mention the amount of money, Honda has the highest budget in f1 at 210 million), the Honda should be more powerful than the benz and ferrari. Thus, the engine alone would put BAR in contention with the top three. However, BAR's chassis will be no match for the Ferraris, Macs, and Willies, unless Geoff Willis really does something with it. Anyways, all will be revealed in a month and a half.

[rapier84]

If Honda opened up the vee ange of next years engine as suggested, not only will the engine be more powerful , but the chassis guys will also reap the benefits of a lower centre of gravity. But remember, when Ferrari switched to 80 then 90 degrees vee in 1998/1999, they took years to become fully competitive due to the difficulties in making the odd vee angle run smoothly and efficently. So I reckon Honda will take some time with this too. Plus the chassisguys at BAR will have to make major revisions to their chassis to accomodate the wider engine. And then, we can't overlook the Toyota engine as well...after all, the points that Toyota scored at the beginning of last year isn't exactly due to a driveable chassis either...

[Jukebox]

One of the reasons why renault were unable to achieve higher hp was because of their v spread engine layout. While it lowered the center of gravity, it is found to be be very jittery.

Having a powerful is one thing but not having the best chassis to go with is another. It's pointless to have a powerful engine but not have a very good chassis/aero package to go with it. BAR last season started with such an awful design.

[rapier84]

Yes, the chassis is very important as well. Take last year's championship for example. BMW is acknowledged to have the most powerful engine (est. 900+BHP), followed by Ferrari, Mercedes, Cosworth, Renault, Honda etc. Yet the Williams chassis isn't as well designed nor as well integrated with the BMW engine as the Ferrari chassis is. If Honda really did open up the vee angle, the BAR chassis might need to be wider at the monocoque and may adversely affect other factors like aerodynamics and cooling. Remember, Renault also took time with their 111 degree engine design to work...

[SpeedTech]

That's why HONDA wants to get more involved with the chassis development that's why HONDA intially intended to buy a F1 team. it also means they might still be interested in an F1 team.

[Guest]

Indeed, Honda is cosying up with BAR. Jordan is a fiercely independent team which is why Honda decided to go with BAR instead in spite of their poorer performance... Yet it is worth noting that teams like Williams and TAG McLaren do well without help from BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the chassis side of things...Honda wasn't exactly the cream of the crop the last time they did both chassis and engine, and their most succesful times were with Williams and McLaren...Besides, Honda is not Toyota, which got the backing of
15 billion dollars (thats US, not Yen!). Neither is it Ferrari, which got the backing of FIAT SPA and to a certain degree, GM...(GM owns part of FIAT car division, though seperate from FIAT SPA) The truth is, Honda is a small company compared to the rest, so it may not be that wise to try and do both chassis and engine...though teams like Ferrari and Toyota will ultimately have the advantage in design and integration of their cars...

[Senna_FAN]

Well, Honda has never actually raced a chassis before, ever. They only tested one in the early 1990's, but it was entirely secretive and they never actually stated how fast it was (a good website which has a lot of info about this is http://8w.forix.com/honda101.html). However, teams like Toyota, even with a huge budget and all have done poorly so far. You cant win with only a huge budget. And besides, Toyota's f1 program is not run by its engineers (like BMW, HONDA, RENAULT, and FERRARI), instead, it is run by people who have very little to do with the actual company. Furthermore, Toyota does not have a 15 billion dollar budget, that is just plain stupid. They have increased their budget to 1 billion dollars over the course of 3 years. SO that is roughly 333 million dollars per year, and that is divided into chassis and engine development, while Honda spends 210 million dollars on the engine program alone, and this year will increase it to over 240 million dollars (because Honda has left CART, it can put more money into F1). Also, I dont see how Honda, which you may say is a small company (although it is 2nd largest in Japan, and larger than Renault, FIAT, and is almost equal to BMW and is the world's largest MOTOR company), would not be able to do well with a full car effort. Listen, budgets dont really matter that much, and Honda's budget is good enough, but its mainly about talent. Look at Jaguar, its financed by the world's 2nd largest automaker and has a huge budget, but still after three years, it has not done well. Well, that's my two cents.

[rapier84]

those with long memories will remember that Honda did made its own f1 cars in the 1960s....

[SpeedTech]

Please Senna Fan dont tell me that you have forgotten about Richie Ginther and the HONDA RA-272 that won the 1965 Mexican Grand Prix. Honda was the first Japanese car manufacturer to participate in F1. but that was thier first victory since entering the 1964 German Grand Prix.
Believe it or not they fitted their RA-272 with a transversley mounted V-12 cylinder engine was said to yeild an amazing 220 HP. That's when Richie Ginther joined the team at the beginng of the season.

Well thats my 2 cent worth