"F-ducts" in every other part

[raymondu999]

Hey all. I'm no aerohead, so do forgive me if this is an impossible idea. We know that it's very possible to produce lots of downforce with the body/chassis, and we see that probably Red Bull are using this very well, and though more efficient than using wings/diffusers (?) in terms of lift/drag, it still produces drag. We've seen how the f-duct can help to reduce the drag from the rear wing (though in my understanding you can't take away 100% of all drag of the wing)

Is it possible to somehow do this for the rest of the body/chassis? Regulations notwithstanding?

Thanks

[Pup]

Even my wife's Merc has little ports in the tail lights to reduce drag. The ban is on driver adjustable ducts, so we'll certainly even still see ducted wings, only without the control. Much like Macca ran last year at Monaco. So, yes, I imagine we'll see the technique migrate to other bits of the car as well.

[747heavy]

it´s a good question IMHO
the front wing would come to mind.
I think, it could be done for the front wing, even under the current regs.

[tomislavp4]

That's a good idea actually. I can't thing of areas where it could be implemended except from the front wing.... btw why aren't they stalling the front wing right now? Would it disturb the flow to the rest of the car?

What are the areas that this could be implemented in in your opinion?

(edit: 747 beat me by a couple of seconds )

[Paul]

But drag penalty from front wing is still very small. It could be used, however, to influence the flow over other parts of the car. With longer side-pods, I would guess some work can be done to reduce drag from front wheels. Now that could be huge for the overall picture.

[tomislavp4]

Yeah, if they can do something to reduce the drag from the wheels they'll gain a lot! Stalling the diffuser crossed my mind but since it is the most efficient part at generating DF I guess there is not much sense in stalling it...

[horse]

I think there is some potential to reduce the drag rear of the car and "stall" the diffuser. If airflow could be put into the diffuser, it might make it act as if the ride height had been increased, which should, in turn, reduce the drag. How much is very dependant on the under body and the vortex generation happening forward of the diffuser.

I would guess some work can be done to reduce drag from front wheels. Now that could be huge for the overall picture.

The wheels is an interesting one, as they create a great deal of drag on the car. Yet, since the wheels came inboard, the amount of drag reduction about the rear wheels has reduced and reduced as the body work has got tighter at the tail of the cars. So do F1 aero guys not see this as beneficial? Or is it regulations? I was going to open a thread about the evolution of this part of body work, actually, as I think the reduction in bodywork here is fascinating.

[l4mbch0ps]

If airflow could be put into the diffuser, it might make it act as if the ride height had been increased, which should, in turn, reduce the drag.

Mmmmm... that doesn't sound quite right. Lower ride height doesn't mean more drag, it means more downforce. If anything, there's LESS drag the lower you go because you're punching through a slightly smaller hole in the air. You hear again and again how they will all push for minimum ride height because it's essentially free downforce.

[horse]

You hear again and again how they will all push for minimum ride height because it's essentially free downforce.

I'm not sure it's strictly "free", it's just that it does not impact a great deal. See these figures that I shouldn't be recreating:

[beflox]

If airflow could be put into the diffuser, it might make it act as if the ride height had been increased, which should, in turn, reduce the drag.

Mmmmm... that doesn't sound quite right. Lower ride height doesn't mean more drag, it means more downforce. If anything, there's LESS drag the lower you go because you're punching through a slightly smaller hole in the air. You hear again and again how they will all push for minimum ride height because it's essentially free downforce.

ha

[DaveKillens]

The F-duct is definitely cool, but it's hidden heart is a "fluidic switch" nestled within the airbox cover. Without any moving parts, it is able to redirect the flow of air from one area to another. Of course, using it to reduce drag on the straights is one solution, but many other areas of the car could benefit from this manner of control.

For instance, the front brake ducts could be undersized, thus reducing drag in most circumstances. But with a fluidic switch, the driver is able to redirect airflow towards the brake ducts, possibly enhancing cooling when it's needed.

Or maybe the driver could have the option of redirecting more cooling air in those hot and humid races.

One area I would like to explore is whether it is possible configure the airbox intake, to increase airflow into this vital area when charging down long straights, or maybe it's better to open up the airbox as much as possible on slow sections, where ram air isn't really having any effect.

[Robbobnob]

As i understand, the front wing not only creates downforce, but also directs a-lot of air around the front tyres, which are a big source of drag, hence the increase in front wing size with the regulations. There fore actually stalling the front wing might cause more harm than benefit.

With a diffuser, like the Red-bulls, the exhaust flow over the diffuser energises the air, creating a greater pressure difference and therefore more downforce, rather than reducing it.

[horse]

For instance, the front brake ducts could be undersized, thus reducing drag in most circumstances. But with a fluidic switch, the driver is able to redirect airflow towards the brake ducts, possibly enhancing cooling when it's needed.

It's a neat idea. The plumbing would probably be a bit challenging, perhaps not worth the expense to recover some of the drag from the break ducts. Interestingly, the "off" mode of this system could put air into the wake behind the front wheels which could cut some drag too. So:

1/ Brakes are cooled through corners <- The "on" mode.
2/ Air vented behind the front wheels to cut drag on straights <- The "off" mode

One area I would like to explore is whether it is possible configure the airbox intake, to increase airflow into this vital area when charging down long straights, or maybe it's better to open up the airbox as much as possible on slow sections, where ram air isn't really having any effect.

This sounds like a supercharger, but I don't know if you can make one of these for "free". A bigger intake will give more drag, it's a bit of a catch 22.

With a diffuser, like the Red-bulls, the exhaust flow over the diffuser energises the air, creating a greater pressure difference and therefore more downforce, rather than reducing it.

Yeah, this is a boundary layer effect, that reduces separation on the top surface of the diffuser and thus drag. Putting cooler air in there will have a different impact. Again, I'm not sure the expense justifies the reward, anyway.

[n_anirudh]

Looking at 2013 rules, it does make sense to use Fducts to stall the tunnels in the sidepods on the straights.

[Just_a_fan]

The wheels is an interesting one, as they create a great deal of drag on the car. Yet, since the wheels came inboard, the amount of drag reduction about the rear wheels has reduced and reduced as the body work has got tighter at the tail of the cars. So do F1 aero guys not see this as beneficial? Or is it regulations? I was going to open a thread about the evolution of this part of body work, actually, as I think the reduction in bodywork here is fascinating.

I think the drag 'bubble' from the rear wheels may actually be being harnessed to help drive the diffuser. Indeed, the blown exhausts that discharge across the top of the diffuers rather than in to it might also be aiding the interaction of the diffuser and the low pressure area behind the rear wheels. Would love to see some airflow visualisation of that area - might help to explain why blowing over the diffuser is still beneficial.