Which race tracks should be revised?

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mkw0101
mkw0101
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Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 20:30

Which race tracks should be revised?

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This came up from me because of the poor race a Yas Marina GP.

Here are the race tracks (RT) that should be revised:

Bahrain RT - and I am glad that FIA brought the original circuit back.

Belgian RT - the last chicane because it is very slow and there is a herpin right after the start/finish line to make the car to slow down.

Abu Dhabi RT - this RT really must be revised because of the super slow turns.
if these turns will be elimenated, the RT will becaome fast and
drivers will be able to overtake each other.

German (hockemhein RT)- It is too short and not many spectators. Germany really
needs a brand new race track.

Shanghai GP - The snail looking two turns must be extinct and make it into a quick left turn from the first turn.

Any other race tracks that needs to be revised?

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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Perhaps it is the cars that should be revised. Sure Tilke's tracks are not the most inspiring layouts, but there are overtaking opportunities on them. Just the cars are too damn fast, too efficient at braking zones, the aero screws up the driver behind and the cars have too much downforce.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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I hear supposedly that the former A1 Ring is being brought up to F1 standards by Red Bull, and will be known as the Red Bull Ring. I don't know if they will actually race there though because something having to do with noise regulations.

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=394920&FS=F1

Maybe it can replace the European GP. Next year Red Bull ring, and then Nurburgring <-one of my favorites.
Saishū kōnā

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
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Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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Red Bull bought the A1 Ring a couple years ago. Their intention was to create private a test facility, similar to what Ferrari has unfortunately the ridiculous testing ban came into force before they could do this. The track has been redesigned (layouts below) to an F1 standard, however there is a proverbial wotsit in the woodpile. Red Bull have a choice. Host an F1 race and have the track underused for the rest of the year OR host other events like F2, DTM etc to comply with the noise regulations.

Track layout 1977 to 1995:
Image

Track layout 1996 to 2004:
Image

New layout, renamed Red Bull Ring:
Image

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alberto222mx
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Joined: 16 May 2010, 18:21
Location: México, D.F.

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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It is easier to say wich tracks shouldn't be revised:
Spa
Monza
Susuka
Istambul
Interlagos

Maybe also
Canada
Silverstone

Some tracks really should dissapear
Bahrein
Valencia

Most important, with many circuits being builded especifically for the F1, I think FIA should revise the layout before the construction start, maybe in simulators or someway, be sure that track will provide a good show.
"Why doesn´t someone tell Pedro it´s raining" - Chris Amon, 1000km Brands Hatch, 1970

wrigs
wrigs
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Joined: 13 Nov 2008, 18:17

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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Bahrain should try running the more open Outer Circuit layout, as suggested by F1Fanatic after this years boring race. The guy who came up with the idea of using the new Grand Prix layout with the twisty section in the middle obviously has zero understanding of what makes Formula One cars pass each other.

The Albert Park circuit in Melbourne is pretty good, although opening up turn 6 a bit could provide better overtaking opportunities in turn 9. Getting rid of turn 15 completely would also make it much easier to get a good draft down to turn 1.

Sepang in Malaysia is good as well. Removing turn 2 could possibly make overtaking into turn 1 a lot easier, since the car being passed won't have the inside line advantage immediately after turn 1. Turn 13 and 14, although being technically difficult, could be made to be more of a regular single hairpin to make overtaking easier. Turn 15 is awesome and we need more of those in Formula One.

Shanghai International Circuit in China: It's very hard to pass into turn 1 here because of turn 2 and 3, but I think those turns give the track some character. Other than that, this track is actually pretty good, although the Grand Prix itself needs a lot more spectators, if you ask Bernie.

Circuit de Catalunya in Spain: I don't even know where to begin. First of all the new chicane in the last sector is completely and utterly stupid. In fact, most chicanes are. Turn 1 and 2 serve as a chicane as well and, while being exciting to watch because of the speed and the elevation changes, only hinders overtaking into turn 1. Then there's a huge infield section with short straights, and lame corners which may be technically challenging but doesn't really provide any overtaking. Turn 10, La Caixa, is the only real overtaking spot in the infield section, and that's too bad for a track with excellent location and excellent elevation changes.

Monaco is somewhat sacred. The chicane after the tunnel is actually okay, because it doesn't give the inside line advantage to any car during a pass. Turns 13-14 and 15-16 need to go though. This would make it easier pass under braking to Rascasse. If you're worried about speed, maybe you can tighten Tabac a little.

Turkey is awesome. 'Nuff said. Well maybe you could get rid of the irrelevant turn 4 to open up the run down to turn 7. Turn 8 is :shock: and turn 9 is good. Turn 12-13-14 could do with losing turn 13 to make passing easier, although it's not that big a problem. Vettel almost overtook someone here this year.

Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve in Canada is a fantastic track. I would like to see turn 1 opened up or removed completely to make passing into turn 2 a lot easier. Remove the chicane after turn two and increase the distance between turn 6 and 7 and you have yourself a decent overtaking spot at turn 6. Turn 10 is great.

Valencia: a lot of people hate it. From a driver's point of view though, it has a terrific flow. It does have a lot of pointless twists and turns and chicanes though. Firstly, getting rid of turn 2 and 3 and then increasing the distance significantly between turn 4 and 5 would help. The chicane-like turn 12-13 has to be revised so that passing is improved going into turn 12. The fast and twisty last sector makes it hard to pass into the last hairpin, especially because braking for the hairpin is already tricky because of the unsettled car you have coming out of turn 24.

Silverstone: What an idiot to get rid of Bridge and replace it with that rubbish infield section. I suppose the new section does create an overtaking spot at Brooklands, but the rest of the section is pointless. Also, don't use the chicane at Vale. Silverstone does have its problems with overtaking because it's very hard to get close to another car going through all of the fast, downforce-demanding corners.

Hockenheim I don't really have any experience with. Alonso was able to overtake here though, which is more than can be said of Abu Dhabi.

The Hungaroring is one more of those tracks with a lot of pointless tracks. I don't see any overtaking spots other than turn 1 here, and perhaps you should just demolish the track and design a completely new one.

Spa is a fantastic track. The new chicane is actually not that bad, because the distance between the corners is quite big compared to other chicanes on the calendar. La Source would still be more exciting without the chicane though.

Monza: Get rid of that god-damned Variante del Rettifilo. Increase the distance between turn 4 and 5 in the Variante della Roggia or get rid of that one completely as well. Variante Ascari is incredibly exciting due to the technicality and pure speed, but I have a feeling that getting rid of it and just having a fast left-hander here would probably make it easier to pass under braking to Parabolica.

Singapore: Turn 1-2-3 needs to be revised somehow. I don't know how, but it should be a lot easier to pass into turn 1 than it is right now. Turn 7 is actually decent and I believe we've seen a few moves here. Get rid of the --- chicane. Who the hell thought it would be a good idea to place a very narrow chicane here, giving the drivers only one racing line through it? Turn 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 are all just "meh" to me. I don't see the point of them.

Suzuka is excellent. The chicane in the last corner works because the distance between the two corners is short enough to award risky overtaking moves here. If you outbrake your opponent and intentionally overshoot the first part of the chicane, you should be able to get away with a pass. The esses make following another car pretty hard, but I don't want to change such an integral part of the track. I believe Kobayashi demonstrated at turn 11 why hairpins are good for Formula One this year.

Korea: Let me just say that anything between turn 4 and turn 17 needs to go. Do it over. This track is doomed if you don't.

Interlagos has a fantastic flow. I don't really want to mess with it that much, although some parts of the infield section are a bit ---.

Abu Dhabi has some problems, we all know that. Martin Whitmarsh pointed to the chicane (turn 8 and 9) after the backstraight, and I think he's right. Either get rid of the chicane completely and allow a huuuuge run down to turn 11, or revise the corners to facilitate overtaking. Revise turn 11-12-13 - it should just be a single, semi-tight corner. Opening up turn 19 a bit and getting rid of turn 20 could make passing into turn 21 a lot easier. Also, get rid of the absolutely stupid turn 5-6 chicane - what is the purpose of a chicane when you have a tight hairpin coming up immediately after it?

The new Jaypee Group Circuit in India actually looks very promising. It has a few of Tilke's trademark chicanes and pointless corners, but the first sector as well as the last sector both look very good.

One thing that I think holds for all tracks is that we need less tarmac run-offs. Yes the drivers risk more, but I don't really think Fernando Alonso missing the exit 5 or 6 times in Abu Dhabi was very exciting. To be frank, I'd rather he smashed into a wall for those antics. Then we wouldn't have to see him waving at Petrov like an idiot either.

That's the Formula One calendar in my opinion, but I'd like to hear if you agree or disagree.

lolzi
lolzi
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010, 14:08

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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If all your suggestions would be followed, I think we might get the dullest F1 season ever - I completely disagree with your opinion, which to me seems like "it you can't overtake, make it straight". I don't think the tracks should just be huge straights. I also like to watch qualifying, and that would be really dull because you remove all the exciting bits.

wrigs
wrigs
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Joined: 13 Nov 2008, 18:17

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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lolzi wrote:If all your suggestions would be followed, I think we might get the dullest F1 season ever - I completely disagree with your opinion, which to me seems like "it you can't overtake, make it straight". I don't think the tracks should just be huge straights. I also like to watch qualifying, and that would be really dull because you remove all the exciting bits.
I don't suggest removing the exciting bits. A turn is not exciting by virtue of the fact that it is a turn. There are a lot of pointless turns, and these are as trivial to the drivers as they are to the spectators. For example, the new chicane at Circuit de Catalunya is a completely irrelevant corner. Removing it increases the chance of a car getting a good draft down to turn 1, and makes passing easier. I wouldn't miss the chicane and I don't think any of the drivers would.

Qualifying does not become more exciting just because the track has more corners. Arriving at high speed to negate a fast corner without losing a lot of speed is to me a lot more exciting than simply having to brake, turn left, then right and then go on the throttle again.

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Roland Ehnström
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 11:46
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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Sorry lolzi, but I have to say I agree with wrigs on pretty much everything here. Most of all, there are too few fast, challenging bends, and the straights are just too short just about everywhere, while there are too many medium speed bends with only one line through.

Make the straights longer, lose all of the pointless chicanes and some of the medium speed bends, and you force the teams to run lower downforce, which in turn makes braking distances into the hairpins longer (not only because you have less grip since you run less downforce, but also because you arrive at a higher speed because you are running less downforce, and also simply because the previous straight is longer). Braking from 350 kph to 70 with a low downforce setup is a lot more challenging, and provides a much better overtaking opportunity, than braking from 280 to 80 with a high downforce setup (the braking distance will be doubled). The fast and medium speed bends will also be a lot more exciting with low downforce setups.

One big reason the Bahrain race was (even) less exciting this year than previousely, was that the added twisty infield section forced the teams to use high downforce setups, which made the fast bends at the end of the lap less challenging, and the brake distances into turn one a lot shorter.

lolzi
lolzi
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010, 14:08

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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I don't disagree with the principle, that the tracks should be revised - but making Abu Dhabi's back straight twice as long would, I think, make it like Indycars with cars passing each other every lap. I also quite like seeing the cars at Hungaroring, even if it's not much of an overtaking circuit. I also like a lot of bit in Korea even though it's not all long straights with hairpins.

gridwalker
gridwalker
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Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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The circuits that I like the most are those that feature a large range of gradiant and elevation changes, which allow a greater range of cambers in the corners (rewarding driver skill). Spa, for example, or even Monaco (look at the lowes hairpin).

The ones that need the most revision are probably some of the flattest.

Does anyone have any data on this? I can't find the stats in an easily comparable format.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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exepm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:42
Location: Argentina

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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WRigs, I agree with you in everything.

From my point of view these circuits reduce speed and makes the configuration of the car extreamly hard, overtakes are narrow miracles and there is no great challange for the poleman. In the other side there are ovals and they are not good with bad weather.

Spa, Kuala Lumpur and Interlagos are great, redisigns should be taken in order to remake some old traces of Silverstone and Imola. The chicanes is a problem in most of the circuits, long straights or soft curves will bring more for the cars.

Montreal and Potrero de los Funes (FIAGT) are classic layouts that must be present in future designs, there is no place for more cornered racetracks like Yas Marina or South Korea.

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
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Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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Funny that everyone has disregarded safety as an issue in this discussion thus far when it is the overarching criteria as far as the FIA is concerned.

Otherwise we could have the old Hockenheim, Interlagos, Österreichring, Monza without chicanes and cars slipstreaming on the Indianapolis oval track. How about reviving Rouen, anyone?

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siskue2005
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Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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i am surprised you guys have forgotten about Barcelona track
that track is up there with Valencia as one of the most boring circuits

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
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Re: Which race tracks should be revised?

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siskue2005 wrote:i am surprised you guys have forgotten about Barcelona track
that track is up there with Valencia as one of the most boring circuits
Some circuits produce boring races but are interesting nevertheless (well at least to me) because the cars look good going on them. Silverstone, Barcelona and Hungaroring are prime examples though I wish they'd go back to the faster old layout in the second one.