How many reference point does a driver take?

[Caito]

Hello guys. I was wondering last night how many reference points an actual f1 driver takes to go into a corner.

I imagine it's not the same than with a regular race car( ie a slower one ) in which you have much more time.

Some of them may be:
-Brake point
-Turn in point
-Apex
-Accel point
-Exit point.



Ideally you would have a point where you start braking, then three to define your path(turn in, apex, exit) and one, probably between apex and exit of accel.

This would probably give a lot of consistency, but I doubt they take all this measurements and probably do some of them "by feeling".


Guerrieri(Renault world series, trying to drive for Virgin) said in a tv show here in Argentina that he took reference for braking, turn in and throttle. That the apex and exit where pretty obvious once you got your turn in right.


Does any one have additional info on how many reference point are taken by the formula1? Or any additional series you know.


Bye bye!

Caito.-

[Jersey Tom]

I don't see why it would be any different than any other road course race series.

[lolzi]

I don't think drivers use more than a braking point and a turn-in point. When you know the turn-in point, you automatically know the apex and exit.

[marcush.]

Are you sure they drive geographically? turninpoints and braking is a much moveable thing with change of loads,tyre conditon trackcondition .To me this is a lot more a feel and anticipation thing than anything else and the guys use these "reference points"
more as a secondary input ,say as a random input.
At those speeds you need to look FAR ahead not to be in a reaction only mode i very much doubt a top driver does really look onto the road ahead...which is impossible as well as you are sitting so low that you cannot see what happens in front of you anyways.
The track unfolds in their mind and they adjust their input to the anticipated griplevels and carreactions.That´s my view of it.

[PNSD]

I think on the most part its possibly subconcious thing. At least once the driver is settled into the track and OK with the conditions. I imagine for learning a new track then reference points will be pretty important, however once your are in a 60 lap race then I believe on the most part it would be a subconcious thing. Once you start thinking about where to brake, turn in, throttle on etc then you are not thinking about what is actually going on.

[Giblet]

A lot of it is about the rhythm, and the driver braking until they feel the grip, then aiming for the apex of the corner.

It's more about a rough braking point that they can deepen of lengthen depending on the pace they need to extract for that part of the race.

[marcush.]

Are you sure it is aiming at the apex? the apex is not important really.In my book it is where you will end up on exit when flooring it as early as possible. the apex is just a point flying by in this ...and you will not be able to move your apex more inside as your car will not like it (wall,sausages,or whatever)..

[Giblet]

It all depends on the corner. A perfectly taken corner will have you cross the apex at the highest possible speed without compromising the exit position. To get to that position, the driver has to turn in and the sooner that car grips, the better. I guess just saying that when the driver transitions from braking to turning, he balances that feelng of grip with his turn in, once that grip is attained you are hopefully sailing past the apex and looking towards your exit and have held as much entry speed as possible.

Coulthard was talking about Kimi's telemetry, and assuming it would be similar to the data he used to see regularly of Hakkinen. DC's data at the transition point from just before the apex to just after it would dip like a V, but Mika would's better represent a U, never slowing down as much. This is that 'feeling the grip' thing I was talking about.

When I am citing these examples, I am talking more about low speed corners you need to brake hard for and turn in to, as opposed to ones you take at a high rate of speed where specific turn in points are used.

I think we are saying the same thing, but I less elegantly I guess.

[Caito]

To cite a pilot, Pedro de la rosa uploaded this to his page. There are of various tracks.

Though it will only help to those who understand spanish



With different loads I don't think they take a different line, just the same line faster. So they would only move the brake point further. Probably accel earlier but I doubt it as they've entereted the turn faster.


I know things go uberly fast and it's probably automatic, but I believe they take lots of references, which once learnt, come automatically.

I don't say they don't feel the car and drive "graphically".


I'm almost sure they take braking reference. Remember when Mark said that the lotus stopped 80ms earlier than the reference point?

Then it's up to the ability of the driver finding how far he can brake(without compromising exit), how well he can trailbrake, when to accel, which line to take.

[Tim.Wright]

The best quote Ive ever seen with regard to this was (I think) from Stirling Moss. It was something along the lines of, Racing a car through a corner is like throwing a dart. One you have presented it to the corner at the limit of adhesion, it will follow a pre-determined trajectory. There is nothing you can do to change its behaviour apart from some minor changes to the trim, sideslip etc.

The actual quote is a lot more poetic that that.

What that means it that once you have braked and turned in, you are no longer in "position control" mode, you are in "force control" mode. So your trajectory through most of the corner is already determined at the brake turn in point.

This is different to driving a road car where you are always in the linear range of the tyres. Then everything is in position control mode.

tim

[marcush.]

the moss quote is a perfect fit to what i heard from the better drivers i had the pleasure to work with.
On very good rally driver said once to me:
I do not know what all these guys are talking of lines .I do not have a line it is just a matter of where you want to have the car for early throttle and minimising time spent on the stage .You decide on placing the car with corner entry speed and manipulating the car for change of direction. everything else is a direct consequence of this the car will find its way alone .So I never ever steer the car out of a corner but just let it go where it wants to go wich is predetermined by my actions at the corner entry-end of story.(the guy was rallying in the 70s /80s with 911Carreras on gravel as well)

[raymondu999]

And then they change setup like a different wing level, and all of their memorising work of the reference points change

[marcush.]

And then they change setup like a different wing level, and all of their memorising work of the reference points change

exactly...

I read Gerhard Bergers book a few years back where he was writing about exactly this.with boost galore for a single lap only a set of tyres you would only have
once the weekend as well for that single lap you went out for the warmuplap .It was like not even looking for a feel of the grip as if you started with sampling grip levels the qualyfiers would not survive even half a lap...so the first time you got sort of a read of what to expect was the last carner of the the outlap...
then all hell brake loose ,a lot more power, all wrong gearing ,moved shiftpoints and braking it all was only a matter of anticipation and being able to feel yourself to the limit in these 2 minutes.He also said he was aging at an alarming
speed in those laps even though it was very rewarding if you managed to get it sorted .

[dougskullery]

Not quite what you're asking, but there was a great Jackie Stewart quote I read once. Can't remember it verbatim, but to paraphrase:

"When I started my career as a driver, I broke each corner down into three phases. By the end of my career, I was breaking them down into seven or eight."

So I suppose the answer to your question is, it depends on the driver. The drivers with the most mental capacity to spare might see phases in cornering that lesser drivers don't think about. In the end, it's a secondary concern - it's whoever comes out of the corner fastest that's done the best job, whether they've got three reference points, eight, or none!

[marcush.]

You are ,to my understanding mixing up two things here:
the actual driving at the limit and analysis of what is going on during cornering.
the 7or 8 phases are not something you are doing to control your flight in a sort of closed loop mode conducting a race track is more of an openloop control were griplevels are one of the constantly changing parameters .The art of it all is that the driver is ANTICIPATING things before they are happening as his reactions are too slow to adapt in
a conventional action reaction mode.