circuits in reverse?

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

circuits in reverse?

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Hey all. This is just a curiosity thing on my part. How do you think a circuit, if you reverse the direction, would need to have changes in terms of car setup and racing lines for optimum balance and laptime? How much laptime do you think will (on average) be the difference, slower or faster? Do you think we'll get laptimes anywhere similar at all?
I think there will be some very interesting corners if that were done. Eau Rouge springs to mind, Stavelot 2, China Snail 2 (I can't remember what the turn number is - the one leading to the back straight) and I think Monaco will produce a very interesting challenge in reverse
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beelsebob
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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raymondu999 wrote:Hey all. This is just a curiosity thing on my part. How do you think a circuit, if you reverse the direction, would need to have changes in terms of car setup and racing lines for optimum balance and laptime? How much laptime do you think will (on average) be the difference, slower or faster? Do you think we'll get laptimes anywhere similar at all?
I think there will be some very interesting corners if that were done. Eau Rouge springs to mind, Stavelot 2, China Snail 2 (I can't remember what the turn number is - the one leading to the back straight) and I think Monaco will produce a very interesting challenge in reverse
Not *exactly* relevant to your question, but an interesting aside - this can't be tested in practice, because of the safety issues. Gravel traps are built in specific areas because they're expecting cars to be carrying speed in one particular direction, tyre walls overlap in a way that means that cars can't run into the ends unless they're going backwards round the circuit, etc.

tok-tokkie
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Turns tend to start tight & open out as you go round (smallest radius at the start with increasing radius as you go round). It allows for increasing speed after the apex. If you reverse the track direction then you have curves with tightening curves which don't allow for increasing speed as you go round & the apex is not really defined.

CMSMJ1
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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The motogp racing at Misano used ot run the other way around..

You could feasibly check out the difference in lap times from the MOtogp and also the superbikes.
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Mandrake
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Just from my experience in racing simulations on the PC it is absolutely track specific whether the laptimes are faster or slower. It can be both. Differences can be small or very large.

Most racing tracks are indeed not designed for going reversed, gravel pits etc. so I doubt this will ever happen in F1 ;)

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Pandamasque
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Eau Rouge in reverse must be fun :lol:

By the way, I've seen a videos of some german rally, that used parts of Nordschleife in reverse!

For example:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NveSiZFcztE[/youtube]

Belatti
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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The most annoying thing I recall while using sim tracks in reverse is the fact that there are no kerbs in the turn exits. You have to be careful not to touch the grass with the wheels. Laptimes would be better with the appropiate kerbs.
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The FOZ
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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It essentially requires that the track be designed that way from the start. Escape areas consist of overlapped sections of crash wall - overlapped such that there's no danger of driving into the edge of a barrier, a la Robert Kubica.

Runout areas and gravel traps would have to work both ways.

I'd wonder about pit in and out roads...do they run equally well both ways?

What about grandstands? A tough braking zone at the end of a high speed section with a couple twisty turnies afterward can make for good overtaking opportunities - it makes sense to put grandstands there. In reverse? Cars go through twisties at low speed, then accelerate down a long straight. Boooooring!

Certain track features make accidents more likely - think of Montreal's wall of champions. What would that section be like in reverse? Conversely, some areas safe in the typical direction may be very hazardous in reverse.

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raymondu999
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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I heard Bruno Senna did some show runs in Spa in reverse
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Ciro Pabón
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Your times would be similar, I think. Car setups would change. This shows how easy is to adapt cars to tracks and how hard is the inverse proposition.

Many circuits would become more difficult, specially the odd ones. Monaco, of course, has been polished over the years. The chicane at The Pool, for example, is the end result of many post-crash analysis, so, essentially, you would have the same evolving redesign. When you run the Monaco tunnel in reverse... well, the new "tunnel exit" would be very hard, not taking in account that you would take Loewe going upwards. You would expect accidents to happen there, so the circuit would change over time.

Of course, as already pointed out, barriers and the such would become mortal traps, safety zones would have to be redesigned and pit entrance and exit wouldn't work as intended (slow down layout in the entrance, acceleration lane on the exit).

I want to point out that in NASCAR, many people take a "Polish victory lap" (in reverse), following its "invention" by Alan Kulwicki. That'll be the day, if someone does the same in F1... because regulations (sigh) forbid it:

"all cars must proceed on the circuit directly to the post race parc fermé without stopping, without overtaking (unless clearly necessary), without receiving any object whatsoever and without any assistance (except that of the marshals if necessary)."

Some days I wonder how fvcking boring have to be Formula One managers. They regulate victory laps, people!

I wouldn't party with those guys if they were the only human beings alive in this world. They probably fall asleep while making love.

I find that as incoherent as regulating an orgasm, in the name of Tazio Nuvolari's ghost! If I won a Formula One race, I would take the penalty (whichever it is), run in reverse, kiss the pitbabes, whip Mosley (if present) and drink the whole champagne bottle in a big gulp. Then I would burp in front of the cameras, I guess.

Now, returning to my story, when Kulwicki died in an airplane accident, hours later his truck driver took the car hauler around the track in reverse, in his honour. After that, some drivers took the custom of honoring his underdog spirit with this kind of racing. Now, what used to be a defiant transgression is a custom. Same thing happened with champagne celebrations in the podium: what used to be a way to taint journalists, now is a procedure. Sigh. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Alan Kulwicki would have liked your idea. I loved the guy: he entered the most expensive series in the US with no sponsors, a racecar and a borrowed pickup truck. He won the Rookie of The Year award that way. A graduated engineer, he drove, owned the team, kept the books and made his own strategy, while rejecting two offers to drive for the super strong Johnson team. That's my kind of driver, preferred over the Schumachers, Hamiltons and Alonsos of this world. Life in reverse, as it should be lived
Image

Finally, I have to remark that I find your proposition very, very, very, very, very dangerous. As you already know, the water (and the cars) spin in a preferred direction, depending on the hemisphere.

So, as is well known by anybody in this forum, trying to run NASCAR races in reverse, with the cars turning right, would make them go in the opposite direction of the Coriolis force, subverting the planet Earth axis, impinging on the crust nucleus and creating a quantum anomaly vortex that would swallow the racetrack and the cars, spectators, the Statue of Liberty and the Twin Towers... wait a minute, not the Twin Towers, they aren't there anymore, but you can picture the image... have you seen 2012? The same thing, with airplanes flying under Metro cars and people screaming and running in circles with their arms held above their heads.

For example, in Colombia, almost at the Equator, you can only run drag races, in a straight line because of the Coriolis force. It's a tad boring, but you get used to it.

That's the main reason why nobody race in reverse. Beware of the vortex.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 30 Apr 2011, 23:25, edited 1 time in total.
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ESPImperium
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Pandamasque wrote:Eau Rouge in reverse must be fun :lol:
If you have a PS3 or X-Box360 and have RaceDriver GRID try it!!! Its fun, in a R10 TDI you are doing close to 350KMh at the bottom.

Must try it in F1 2010!!!

But i think this may be a way of solving a problem like Abu Dhabi in one way, but in another cause problems at other tracks.

It was one idea that was thought of at Singapoere, but the overtaking was in simulations gonna be less than is now.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Don't you hate when you run the track in reverse in car simulators but you don't get a lap time?

When I found that, I throw away the simulator and got a kart. Do the same, you'll thank me. This PS Nintendo XBox thing can be harmful, it gives you cancer, leukemia, headaches, radiation and the crabs... not to mention the quantum vortex that can happen if you press UP-UP-DOWN-LEFT-X-Y-Y.
Ciro

bhall
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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Crabs? :?

What are you doing to your console?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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It's not my fault, it's her fault. That darn vibrating mode...

Anyway, this is for the more naive members, including ESPImperium, whose imagination doesn't run wild today: DO NOT USE THE PLAYSTATION MOVE CONTROL AS A DILDO. Specially in reverse.

I confess I did not read all the details, but from the picture... I'd say the thing is complete, it even includes a "vividly coloured testicle", according to some serious fraggers.

An obscene failure: the PS Wanker. Quantum vortexer on the left, One Testicled Dildo on the right
Image

Some days I think I'm going to be the first ex-mod expelled from this forum, btw.
Ciro

beelsebob
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Re: circuits in reverse?

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ESPImperium wrote:
Pandamasque wrote:Eau Rouge in reverse must be fun :lol:
If you have a PS3 or X-Box360 and have RaceDriver GRID try it!!! Its fun, in a R10 TDI you are doing close to 350KMh at the bottom.

Must try it in F1 2010!!!

But i think this may be a way of solving a problem like Abu Dhabi in one way, but in another cause problems at other tracks.

It was one idea that was thought of at Singapoere, but the overtaking was in simulations gonna be less than is now.
F1 2010 is incredibly frustrating and ends your race instantly if you try to drive backwards.

Seriously... What kind of racing game spoils every 12 year old's^W^W^W David Coulthard's dream of driving head on into a full grid of F1 cars?