HALO Approved for 2018

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aral
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by aral » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:07 pm

I started to remove some posts as this debate between seat belts and Halo were getting ridiculous and rather pointless. The halo was approved and mandatory for 2018 and will still remain so for the forseable future. Will it save lives or serious injury? Most likely, but continuing the argument , contrary to expert opinion, is not going to change the rules.
More posts deserve to be removed , and are likely to be.
Please move on to 2019.

strad
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by strad » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:48 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:53 pm
What people do for their own entertainment and what people require others to do in order to provide vicarious thrills are two entirely separate and different things.
No body requires anyone too drive and never has.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Bence
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Bence » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 am

The halo is a latent potential killer.

As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.

Scorpaguy
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Scorpaguy » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:38 am

The HALO is going to save lives and cost lives...the ratio of such is yet to be determined. What I do not look forward to is that bad situation when the inability to self extricate creates a horrible optic of a visibly struggling, but trapped driver. However, we can be assured that if such does happen, the FIA will aver the driver would have suffered multiple deaths prior to his struggling had the HALO not been in place.

Jolle
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Jolle » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am

Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 am
The halo is a latent potential killer.

As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.
We had this nosecone on the head thing at IndyCar, without halo. His head did rotate away! Snapped his neck in the process.

henry
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by henry » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:32 am

strad wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:48 pm
henry wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:53 pm
What people do for their own entertainment and what people require others to do in order to provide vicarious thrills are two entirely separate and different things.
No body requires anyone too drive and never has.
I was using require in its sense of needing or expecting, not commanding or instructing. I well no that no body, or nobody, forces them.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Bence
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Bence » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:31 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am
Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 am
The halo is a latent potential killer.

As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.
We had this nosecone on the head thing at IndyCar, without halo. His head did rotate away! Snapped his neck in the process.
Justin Wilson died of traumatic brain injuries, not because of a snapped neck...

But imagine when you sit in the car, you are stationery after the accident and the other car comes from the opposite direction at an angle, goes airborne and would normally fly over your head, but the halo catches the nosecone, the nose slides under the halo and your fate is sealed. Nowhere to go, your pupils go wide as time slows down in the moment of the accident and you realize, that was it. It can be a freakishly low speed accident, but the forces are enough to twist or crack a neck or skull.

strad
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by strad » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:06 pm

Bence wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:44 pm
The halo is a latent potential killer.
As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.
Even I have a hard time picturing that one. Are our noses pointy enough to fit between the HALO and the cowl?
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Jolle
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Jolle » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 am

Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:31 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am
Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 am
The halo is a latent potential killer.

As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.
We had this nosecone on the head thing at IndyCar, without halo. His head did rotate away! Snapped his neck in the process.
Justin Wilson died of traumatic brain injuries, not because of a snapped neck...

But imagine when you sit in the car, you are stationery after the accident and the other car comes from the opposite direction at an angle, goes airborne and would normally fly over your head, but the halo catches the nosecone, the nose slides under the halo and your fate is sealed. Nowhere to go, your pupils go wide as time slows down in the moment of the accident and you realize, that was it. It can be a freakishly low speed accident, but the forces are enough to twist or crack a neck or skull.
If, after a big accident I’m in the opposite direction with cars flying towards me, I definitely want a halo!!

adrianjordan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by adrianjordan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:19 pm

Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:31 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am
Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 am
The halo is a latent potential killer.

As long as the gap between the arc of the halo and the cockpit is large enough to trap a nosecone and guide it towards the head/helmet of the driver, there is no such thing as protection in this case. Either the head rotates away, or the nose parks in right through the visor.
We had this nosecone on the head thing at IndyCar, without halo. His head did rotate away! Snapped his neck in the process.
Justin Wilson died of traumatic brain injuries, not because of a snapped neck...

But imagine when you sit in the car, you are stationery after the accident and the other car comes from the opposite direction at an angle, goes airborne and would normally fly over your head, but the halo catches the nosecone, the nose slides under the halo and your fate is sealed. Nowhere to go, your pupils go wide as time slows down in the moment of the accident and you realize, that was it. It can be a freakishly low speed accident, but the forces are enough to twist or crack a neck or skull.
The HANS would offer considerable protection for a driver's neck, it would have to be a very freakish accident for a driver to suffer a broken neck, let alone a fatal (or even paralysing) spinal injury....not saying it couldn't happen, but it is unlikely in the extreme.

As for head injuries, that's what helmets are for. I don't know, but I suspect there is a lot of ongoing research into improving the protection offered by the helmets.

Of course the best solution in your example would be a HALO with screens in between the chassis and the upper bar...but then you have issues of visual distortion that the drivers don't seem to be able to cope with.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

Big Tea
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by Big Tea » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:56 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:19 pm
Bence wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:31 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:18 am


We had this nosecone on the head thing at IndyCar, without halo. His head did rotate away! Snapped his neck in the process.
Justin Wilson died of traumatic brain injuries, not because of a snapped neck...

But imagine when you sit in the car, you are stationery after the accident and the other car comes from the opposite direction at an angle, goes airborne and would normally fly over your head, but the halo catches the nosecone, the nose slides under the halo and your fate is sealed. Nowhere to go, your pupils go wide as time slows down in the moment of the accident and you realize, that was it. It can be a freakishly low speed accident, but the forces are enough to twist or crack a neck or skull.
The HANS would offer considerable protection for a driver's neck, it would have to be a very freakish accident for a driver to suffer a broken neck, let alone a fatal (or even paralysing) spinal injury....not saying it couldn't happen, but it is unlikely in the extreme.

As for head injuries, that's what helmets are for. I don't know, but I suspect there is a lot of ongoing research into improving the protection offered by the helmets.

Of course the best solution in your example would be a HALO with screens in between the chassis and the upper bar...but then you have issues of visual distortion that the drivers don't seem to be able to cope with.

I know its very 'Star Trek' and I do not know how good the optical qualities are, but thy are 'talking about' safety glasses made of it.

http://www.surmet.com/technology/alon-optical-ceramics/
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

FW17
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by FW17 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:40 pm

Today the debris flying around made quiet an impact.

Wonder if FIA will further improve on the halo

Image

El Scorchio
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by El Scorchio » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:46 pm

Is that the debris that ripped Hamilton's wing mirror off the car? Extremely lucky it didn't enter the cockpit. It would have done a lot of damage, halo or no halo.

izzy
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by izzy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:57 pm

FW17 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:40 pm
Today the debris flying around made quiet an impact.

Wonder if FIA will further improve on the halo

https://www.sportvideos.tv/wp-content/u ... .39.11.png
yes halo isn't 100% is it, and yes i bet FIA are watching the Indy screen. but in probability terms Halo is more effective than you might think at first glance: not many things will miss the centre strut completely and yet hit the helmet at all square. Most things will at least partly hit the centre strut or glance off the rounded side of the helmet

and in exchange Halo skips all the problems of the screen with spray getting on the inside and muck on the outside and sun on it and all that

El Scorchio
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

Post by El Scorchio » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:05 pm

To be truthful this is on the stewards rather than the pros and cons of halo vs screen or otherwise.

Leclercs car should have been flagged straight away. That's the one bulletproof way of avoiding the incident in this circumstance.