Silly Season 2018/2019

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hemichromis
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by hemichromis » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:02 am

Rumours that Force India is being sold to Lawrence stroll.

So Perez/Stroll next year?

djos
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by djos » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:33 am

hemichromis wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:02 am
Rumours that Force India is being sold to Lawrence stroll.

So Perez/Stroll next year?
I think I'd rather have Ocon than Perez!
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hemichromis
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by hemichromis » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:42 am

So would I but I think they would like an experienced driver with Stroll.

FrukostScones
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by FrukostScones » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:15 am

alexx_88 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:48 am
Where's Hulk?
He will be there instead of ALO if ALO decides to quit.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important. ...

Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:35 am

I think the Alonso to Ferrari connection is a whortwhile theory to entertain. It depends largely on the question 'how confident are Ferrari in Vettel being the guy to lead the team forward'. I don't mean to hate on Vettel or anything - I think he is an extraordinary driver and qualifier. His championship wins in 2010 and especially in 2012 are testament to that. I do think though that Ferrari is under immense pressure (by themselves) to win a championship. They've come too close in the RedBull dominant years, then they fell back, there was a major restructuring and now, arguably since 1.5 years, they have a championship winning car. Last year didn't go their way - and Vettel (Baku/Singapore/Mexico) was responsible for some of that just as was the car on other occasions that lost them a lot of points. This year, the stakes are even higher with a car that since Austria seems to be the strongest package with a substantial advantage. While I was of the opinion that Mercedes was quickest and that their main issues were tire related, arguably one has to admit that since around Spain or France, Mercedes has been on top of their tire issues, yet Ferrari is right there, if not stronger. Put it down to the engine or twin battery, they're doing something right.

Yet, despite this, Mercedes are heading to Hungary leading the WDC by 17 points and the WCC by 10. Small mistakes can be costly and if Ferrari fail to capitalize on this year, I feel there will be some consequences. Vettels contract is secure, but perhaps the management will feel less inclined to put all their eggs in that one basket and entertain an equally strong driver for their second car. Arguably, this should have been Kimi, but he has failed to step up.

Long term thinking, there is Charles Leclerc who is a Ferrari junior driver, but arguably, he is still very young and given that both RedBull and Mercedes are closed for at least a year, one could entertain perhaps putting Alonso or someone else into that 2nd Ferrari. Maybe Sainz if Renault are after Ocon? I'm still doubtful if Alonso is really being considered or just there as a means to put some pressure on Vettel.

Personally, I think Vettel has been doing a terrific job at Ferrari. Yes, he has made some mistakes, but I think some of those mistakes are not entirely his fault, but perhaps also linked to the pressure Ferrari puts their team under.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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WaikeCU
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by WaikeCU » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:54 am

Phil wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:35 am
Yet, despite this, Mercedes are heading to Hungary leading the WDC by 17 points and the WCC by 10. Small mistakes can be costly and if Ferrari fail to capitalize on this year, I feel there will be some consequences. Vettels contract is secure, but perhaps the management will feel less inclined to put all their eggs in that one basket and entertain an equally strong driver for their second car. Arguably, this should have been Kimi, but he has failed to step up.
I think the philosophy of the Ferrari cars for past years have been suited for Vettel. Ferrari have adopted the high rake design of Red Bull, a team where Vettel have driven for years. The cars that Vettel drove at Red Bull almost all had a high rake. So it's advantage Vettel imo regarding the car. I don't think Kimi is faster than Vettel per se, but I think he's consistent in his driving and does not take unnecessary risks when not needed. Kimi is all non nonsense and just does the job. You can count on Kimi when you put all eggs in his basket. It's just a matter if there are better drivers on the grid and IMO there are (at least two).

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Big Tea » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:59 am

Phil wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:35 am
I think the Alonso to Ferrari connection is a whortwhile theory to entertain. It depends largely on the question 'how confident are Ferrari in Vettel being the guy to lead the team forward'. I don't mean to hate on Vettel or anything - I think he is an extraordinary driver and qualifier. His championship wins in 2010 and especially in 2012 are testament to that. I do think though that Ferrari is under immense pressure (by themselves) to win a championship. They've come too close in the RedBull dominant years, then they fell back, there was a major restructuring and now, arguably since 1.5 years, they have a championship winning car. Last year didn't go their way - and Vettel (Baku/Singapore/Mexico) was responsible for some of that just as was the car on other occasions that lost them a lot of points. This year, the stakes are even higher with a car that since Austria seems to be the strongest package with a substantial advantage. While I was of the opinion that Mercedes was quickest and that their main issues were tire related, arguably one has to admit that since around Spain or France, Mercedes has been on top of their tire issues, yet Ferrari is right there, if not stronger. Put it down to the engine or twin battery, they're doing something right.

Yet, despite this, Mercedes are heading to Hungary leading the WDC by 17 points and the WCC by 10. Small mistakes can be costly and if Ferrari fail to capitalize on this year, I feel there will be some consequences. Vettels contract is secure, but perhaps the management will feel less inclined to put all their eggs in that one basket and entertain an equally strong driver for their second car. Arguably, this should have been Kimi, but he has failed to step up.

Long term thinking, there is Charles Leclerc who is a Ferrari junior driver, but arguably, he is still very young and given that both RedBull and Mercedes are closed for at least a year, one could entertain perhaps putting Alonso or someone else into that 2nd Ferrari. Maybe Sainz if Renault are after Ocon? I'm still doubtful if Alonso is really being considered or just there as a means to put some pressure on Vettel.

Personally, I think Vettel has been doing a terrific job at Ferrari. Yes, he has made some mistakes, but I think some of those mistakes are not entirely his fault, but perhaps also linked to the pressure Ferrari puts their team under.
I doubt Alonso would go there the same time as Seb, as it seems contrary to Ferrari's normal style of having a clear number one driver and support driver.
They would not only take points off each other, but be in danger of taking each other out. Alonso does not tend to get involved in wheelbanging but Seb defiantly does when he thinks it would help (and other times)

Unless the new management has a change of view and decide the manufacturers championship is now where they want to go, and even then the points above still apply.

From the 'other side of the fence' with Seb in place, I can not see a seat he would be at all interested in with another team, except maybe Merc, who are happy with the incumbents for 2 years.

If Alonso was to return to the Ferrari fold, it would have to be with a Ferrari customer team. Could they convince him that the Alfa name on the Sauber is the important one? That may be worth his consideration. He is always a sponsor magnet and a few extra million would be very handy for Sauber/Alfa.
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:11 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:59 am
I doubt Alonso would go there the same time as Seb, as it seems contrary to Ferrari's normal style of having a clear number one driver and support driver.
They would not only take points off each other, but be in danger of taking each other out. Alonso does not tend to get involved in wheelbanging but Seb defiantly does when he thinks it would help (and other times)
I think there are few drivers who wouldn't care less who their team-mate is. Alonso is one of them. And if it is Ferrari's style or not, that's fairly debatable. Kimi won in 2007, yet in 2008, it was Massa who was stronger and thus, had the support of the team. In that sense, I don't buy the "clear number 1 and number 2 driver argument". Ferrari is a strong team. They'd have no problems favoring one driver over the other, using the 2nd driver as a pawn as they have done so on numerous occasion, regardless who that driver is. No one is above the team. Thus it becomes a question of team-management.

Clearly, Vettel is the stronger driver of their current pair, so it's logical that Ferrari will make sure that their number 1 driver gets the necessary support to be in the strongest possible situation for the WDC. But what if they see that they could and should be winning the WDC for the 2nd time in a row yet are not? Hang on to that driver unquestionably? That's where I am doubtful. I think the pressure Ferrari puts themselves under is immense and that kind of pressure and belief that they should be winning this years championship could lead to them possibly reconsidering how many of those eggs they are willing to put in that basket.

In theory, if Alonso were to join, there's no stopping Ferrari handing out team-orders if one of their drivers ends up with a clear advantage over the other. I would stipulate as much in any driver contract. Alonso may bite regardless because this may be the only chance he has left to win a championship and if he believes he could easily beat Seb in the same team, why wouldn't he?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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alexx_88
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by alexx_88 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:09 pm

I think we all remember Multi21 and how that played out with Vettel. I support Alonso and, no matter how much I'd love to see that happen (as a fan of the sport it would be even better to have such great drivers in equal machinery), I simply don't see the team's motivation behind doing so. I can't imagine Vettel/Alonso accepting a "hold position" order as Bottas did on Sunday.

Totally agree with the second part of your argument though (have mentioned it myself a few posts ago), having the car to battle for the championship is vastly more difficult than finding a top driver. If Vettel would retire tomorrow, you'd have 3-4 top drivers who'd battle to get that seat (Verstapen, Ric, Alonso and even Rosberg) and I doubt you'd see any drop in results. But, with Vettel and Alonso, I really don't see it working out. I think neither of them has the right personality to function well in such an environment. I also have no doubt Alonso would accept to partner Vettel if offered the chance, but, no matter what you put in the contract, the potential to have a total meltdown of the team just seems too big to be ignored.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:49 pm

It's an employer/employee relationship. Mercedes could manage their drivers, so can RedBull. If it is stipulated in the contract, the team could easily threaten to not put the driver in the car. as a form of phnishment As great as Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso are and no matter the size of their egos, they are not worth more than the hundredths and thousands of employees in the background that make the whole team. F1 has always and will always be team-sport. If you don't like that, go watch Tennis or something. And besides, when Hamilton was asked to give back the place last year in Hungary, he did.

Having that said, after the Barcelona crash in 2016 between Hamilton and Rosberg, the team supposedly threatened to sit out one driver for a race. The same could happen if Alonso and Vettel were in the same team.

Honestly, I'm not an Alonso fan and I could really care less if he is in F1 next year or not. I've always argued that he is no threat to anyone, thus none of the top-teams really wants/needs him. However, the scenario as suggested is interesting under the presumption that Ferrari are putting themselves under this huge pressure to win championships and arguably have had the car to do it this and last year. Vettel has made some costly mistakes this year which, like last year in Singapore, could prove to be very costly. The big question is; will Ferrari commit themselves fully behind their star driver, or will there be a point when they consider having two equally strong drivers to see if that puts them into a better position?

The strongest available driver must surely be Alonso. And arguably, there would be little issue with simply signing him for a single year to see how it pans out.

Anyway, if this comes across as slightly anti-Vettel, I am not. In my personal opinion, he is doing a great job and I personally think the team should be standing all the way behind him, if not at least to give him the trust that the team is committed equally to him as he is to the team. It was commendable how Vettel reacted last year in Monza to losing out to Mercedes and stood by the team - equally, it would be great to see Ferrari standing behind their driver. in times like these.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Big Tea
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Big Tea » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:17 pm

Phil wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:49 pm
It's an employer/employee relationship. Mercedes could manage their drivers, so can RedBull. If it is stipulated in the contract, the team could easily threaten to not put the driver in the car. as a form of phnishment As great as Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso are and no matter the size of their egos, they are not worth more than the hundredths and thousands of employees in the background that make the whole team. F1 has always and will always be team-sport. If you don't like that, go watch Tennis or something. And besides, when Hamilton was asked to give back the place last year in Hungary, he did.

Having that said, after the Barcelona crash in 2016 between Hamilton and Rosberg, the team supposedly threatened to sit out one driver for a race. The same could happen if Alonso and Vettel were in the same team.

Honestly, I'm not an Alonso fan and I could really care less if he is in F1 next year or not. I've always argued that he is no threat to anyone, thus none of the top-teams really wants/needs him. However, the scenario as suggested is interesting under the presumption that Ferrari are putting themselves under this huge pressure to win championships and arguably have had the car to do it this and last year. Vettel has made some costly mistakes this year which, like last year in Singapore, could prove to be very costly. The big question is; will Ferrari commit themselves fully behind their star driver, or will there be a point when they consider having two equally strong drivers to see if that puts them into a better position?

The strongest available driver must surely be Alonso. And arguably, there would be little issue with simply signing him for a single year to see how it pans out.

Anyway, if this comes across as slightly anti-Vettel, I am not. In my personal opinion, he is doing a great job and I personally think the team should be standing all the way behind him, if not at least to give him the trust that the team is committed equally to him as he is to the team. It was commendable how Vettel reacted last year in Monza to losing out to Mercedes and stood by the team - equally, it would be great to see Ferrari standing behind their driver. in times like these.
I also am not Pro Alonso or Anti Vettel, but still think to make it work Alonso would have to replace Seb.
Partly as I said due to just plain conflict, but also, looking back to his RBR days when his team mate started roughing hi, he seemed to wander off mentally. I think Alonso would have him crumbling if it looked to be close or Alonso slightly infront. It would be good sport to watch though :twisted:
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:06 pm

Possible scenario:

Arrivabene; "Seb, we will sign Alonso instead of Kimi."
Vettel: "I don't want that."
Arrivabene; "I didn't ask."

I honestly don't see any issue. No, Vettel probably won't like it, but does he realistically have a choice? It's the teams way or the highway. Same applies to driver management. Worst case scenario; Both Vettel and Alonso are close and split their wins throughout the season and a Mercedes driver walks it barely. If they crash, the team could easily punish one driver by threatening to sit him out, like Mercedes supposedly did.

Disclaimer: I don't think it will necessarily happen, just playing devils advocate here.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Jolle
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Jolle » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:10 pm

Phil wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:06 pm
Possible scenario:

Arrivabene; "Seb, we will sign Alonso instead of Kimi."
Vettel: "I don't want that."
Arrivabene; "I didn't ask."

I honestly don't see any issue. No, Vettel probably won't like it, but does he realistically have a choice? It's the teams way or the highway. Same applies to driver management. Worst case scenario; Both Vettel and Alonso are close and split their wins throughout the season and a Mercedes driver walks it barely. If they crash, the team could easily punish one driver by threatening to sit him out, like Mercedes supposedly did.

Disclaimer: I don't think it will necessarily happen, just playing devils advocate here.
Yes, makes sense. Invest 40 mln a year in a 4 time world champion, put a 2 time world champion in same car and ask yourself why there is conflict in the team and you're loosing points.

two "number ones" only work if your car is miles ahead of the competition, in all other scenario's it fails.

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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:27 pm

Contrary to popular belief, I don't believe in this concept of number 1 or number 2 drivers being stipulated in any current f1 driver contracts. If Kimi for whatever reason would be leading the WDC by better on track performance, do you think Ferrari would go out and tell him to slow down so that Vettel as the better driver on paper could win if Kimi is their best chance at securing a drivers championship? What difference does it make if we are talking about Kimi, Alonso or any other driver? The on-track results are what count, not the salary one is earning.

Perhaps one should ask what is more important to Ferrari? Winning world-championships or making sure their 40 million per year driver is happy?

As for losing points; That one is debatable. They'd only be losing points if the wins are distributed evenly among each other. It could just as well be likely that they are more likely to secure more consistent 1&2s with the better car and that the majority of points goes to the better driver.

Either way, I think there are pro's and con's for both scenarios; Having a fast and a slower driver has its benefits, but so does having two equally competitive ones. I'm not convinced one is clear-cut better than the other.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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netoperek
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Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by netoperek » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:29 pm

In other silly season news, there has been quite some rumours regarding Kubica. First, he has been linked with Haas, but Mr. Steiner said they're not negotiating with Robert, then Kubica said that it's not Haas he's in talks with. Now there are some whispers about Sauber being seriously interested. Williams, especially in situation they're going to be soon with Stroll departing, will be keen to keep him. Not only supposedly data suggests that he is as fast and consistent as he ever was, he also have a substancial financial backing as well, ready to be used if he is to be put in a car. Problem for Williams might be to convince him, as he's reportedly not that much interested any more, while he has other possibilities.