FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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dans79
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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LM10 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:29 am
At the end, none of the teams have filed a protest until now, for whatever reason. They basically have just been loud, asking the FIA for clarification and telling their opinion in interviews. If I had been absolutely sure about a cheat, I would have protested. This way, the allegedly cheating team would have been disqualified, my team would have gotten tons of extra money and on top of that, the cheat would have come to daylight with all it's details. Totally win-win situation for the protester.
Are Mercedes or RedBull afraid of protesting? If so, why? Maybe they know way too much about Ferrari's PU and the FIA would ask them how they were able to understand the trick to such extends when even the FIA was not able to with the actual PU in their hands. Cheating is not a nice thing, but espionage is not either.
The problem is that f1 is no longer about just racing, and it hasn't been for many many years. back room corporate deals, and slight of hands is rampant now. None of the teams can afford to look bad, because the entire image/brand issue.
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KeiKo403
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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I keep seeing the same argument repeated every couple of pages that teams should've protested the Ferrari PU.
Teams can only lodge a formal protest with evidence, "I'm sure they're cheating" doesn't cut it. Most protests in recent times have come from either publicly taken photo's (cars in pit lane or on track) or from television coverage, all of which are pretty much publicly accessible.
Flexing front wings, double diffuser and changing BB with preset dials to name a couple.

For a team to have information with regards to how a competitor runs it's engine though would probably involve espionage, not the 007 spy work espionage but espionage all the same. The last team to have been found guilty of espionage in F1 ended up losing all constructors points and had a 100m euro fine (ahem, sanction!), so a precedent has been set for how to handle espionage cases.

So if you're Mercedes and about to win your 7th consecutive double championship with all of that prize money and positive publicity why would you risk being found guilty of espionage?
If you're Red Bull and you stand to gain 20m euros in additional prize money why risk losing all championship points and having a hefty fine?

The teams may think they know what Ferrari are doing but they probably want to find out how deep the FIA dug into how the Ferrari PU was being ran more than wanting to know how Ferrari gained x more HP.

For what it's worth, based on the limited information we have (FIA statements)I'm hard pushed to believe that Ferrari operated it's PU 100% legally throughout the 2019 season.
I think the FIA statement was their way of dropping Ferrari in it with the other teams/press while still abiding by any probable agreement they reached with Ferrari about keeping this all hush-hush. Maybe the FIA found a loophole in the agreement allowing they to say there is an agreement but Ferrari won't let us tell you what that is.

Just because we may never know doesn't mean we can't sensibly speculate. We should welcome differing opinions with open minds and make considered counter arguments, not just call people Ferrari haters or Mercedes/Red Bull fan bois.

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subcritical71
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:24 pm
For a team to have information with regards to how a competitor runs it's engine though would probably involve espionage, not the 007 spy work espionage but espionage all the same. The last team to have been found guilty of espionage in F1 ended up losing all constructors points and had a 100m euro fine (ahem, sanction!), so a precedent has been set for how to handle espionage cases.
I read somewhere, can't remember now, but that it was a whistleblower who was once at the employ of Ferrari. Probably just media speculation, but such a person would indeed know the inner workings. Point being, it doesn't necessarily have to be espionage.

LM10
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:21 pm
KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:24 pm
For a team to have information with regards to how a competitor runs it's engine though would probably involve espionage, not the 007 spy work espionage but espionage all the same. The last team to have been found guilty of espionage in F1 ended up losing all constructors points and had a 100m euro fine (ahem, sanction!), so a precedent has been set for how to handle espionage cases.
I read somewhere, can't remember now, but that it was a whistleblower who was once at the employ of Ferrari. Probably just media speculation, but such a person would indeed know the inner workings. Point being, it doesn't necessarily have to be espionage.
Last PU engineer leaving Ferrari for Mercedes was Lorenzo Sassi and that was in 2017. Not sure how detailed knowledge he would have of the current PU.

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subcritical71
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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LM10 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:23 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:21 pm
KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:24 pm
For a team to have information with regards to how a competitor runs it's engine though would probably involve espionage, not the 007 spy work espionage but espionage all the same. The last team to have been found guilty of espionage in F1 ended up losing all constructors points and had a 100m euro fine (ahem, sanction!), so a precedent has been set for how to handle espionage cases.
I read somewhere, can't remember now, but that it was a whistleblower who was once at the employ of Ferrari. Probably just media speculation, but such a person would indeed know the inner workings. Point being, it doesn't necessarily have to be espionage.
Last PU engineer leaving Ferrari for Mercedes was Lorenzo Sassi and that was in 2017. Not sure how detailed knowledge he would have of the current PU.
True, have there been any transfers to other merc powered teams, or possibly Honda/Renault?

One thing that struck me today a little bit related was when the FIA technical delegate (Budkowski) move to Renault the teams were in an uproar about their secrets being exposed. Come to find out the FIA are not the know-it-all’s expected of a governing body.

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nzjrs
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:21 pm
KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 2:24 pm
For a team to have information with regards to how a competitor runs it's engine though would probably involve espionage, not the 007 spy work espionage but espionage all the same. The last team to have been found guilty of espionage in F1 ended up losing all constructors points and had a 100m euro fine (ahem, sanction!), so a precedent has been set for how to handle espionage cases.
I read somewhere, can't remember now, but that it was a whistleblower who was once at the employ of Ferrari. Probably just media speculation, but such a person would indeed know the inner workings. Point being, it doesn't necessarily have to be espionage.


In any case, whistle-blower laws are a specific and debatable legal construction that varies in application across countries and fields. It's not clear the degree of which it would be applicable here.

Please do not attack others

Last edited by nzjrs on Fri May 01, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Laserguru
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:53 pm
Laserguru wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:48 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:30 pm


But still to the same regulations. and its not like they are going to call any of the "they cheating" chaps from here?

You think so? Remember 2014 when stewards from the Grand Prix in Abu Dhabi opted to disqualify both Red Bull Racing drivers after it was found that the team had designed its front wings to flex under aerodynamic load?
No i don't remember, did they pass the static load test?
Ricciardo and Vettel. Should have started from the last line but the team opted to start from the pits with different front wings. Not disqualified though but excluded from qualifying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Abu_ ... qualifying
Engineering thrives on communication.

Laserguru
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 8:01 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:23 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 6:21 pm


I read somewhere, can't remember now, but that it was a whistleblower who was once at the employ of Ferrari. Probably just media speculation, but such a person would indeed know the inner workings. Point being, it doesn't necessarily have to be espionage.
Last PU engineer leaving Ferrari for Mercedes was Lorenzo Sassi and that was in 2017. Not sure how detailed knowledge he would have of the current PU.
True, have there been any transfers to other merc powered teams, or possibly Honda/Renault?

One thing that struck me today a little bit related was when the FIA technical delegate (Budkowski) move to Renault the teams were in an uproar about their secrets being exposed. Come to find out the FIA are not the know-it-all’s expected of a governing body.
Or in him FIA lost that one employee who could?
Engineering thrives on communication.

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RZS10
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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This was posted in the Ferrari engine thread but i think it rather belongs here ...
SiLo wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:18 am
So this article is quite interesting regarding the FIA deal and the Ferrari engine:

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... refresh_ce

The best summary I could find (from Reddit):

1) Red Bull and Mercedes suspected faul play by Ferrari regarding the engine, but their clarifications asked from the FIA initially amounted to nothing.

2) A FIA-person, who was embedded at Ferrari found out the trick Ferrari was pulling off (bypassing the fuel flow sensor) and forwarded that information to either Mercedes (or Red Bull) who then asked the FIA for clarification, leading to the TD that nerfed Ferrari, and the FIA-Ferrari settlement.

3) To put that into context; the FIA can't issue technical clarifications of their own volition. A team needs to prompt the FIA, upon which they can issue a TD. This FIA-person therefore handed over this info about the Ferrari engine to Mercedes.. allegedly, which eventually led to the TD.

4) Ferrari felt betrayed by this FIA-person (who in their eyes illegally shared Ferrari IP with others) and feel that Toto's wrath was in retaliation to Ferrari vetoeing him as Chase Carey's successor as the head of Formula 1.

5) It is believed (by those in or close to Ferrari) that other (read: most likely Mercedes) engines still operate in a grey area, while Ferrari is now fielding the only truly legal engine.

If this is the wrong thread let me know and I can move it.
This has to be some of the dumbest most desperate rambling about this entire saga by a mile ... and of course it was published by some small unknown italian site ...

Does anyone believe the FIA would install a spy(!) at a team just because the other teams think said team might be bending the rules? And then the FIA would give the info to another team so that the team could ask for further clarification (after initial requests were pretty much ignored?)

Didn't the FIA say they'd gladly make the settlement public but that Ferrari wouldn't allow it? They sure as hell wouldn't want that if the spy (lol) thing was true ...

Oh and the "everyone else is cheating and Ferrari is the only legal engine" bit? The cherry on top in this wonderful piece of fiction.

It's sad actually how italian outlets are deflecting and trying to paint the red team as a victim in some sort of conspiracy.

But it's the next logical step in the bs stories written by italian media:
"there's nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower but there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but it's actually more about the other teams and protecting Ferrari's IP and there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but it's actually more about the other teams and protecting Ferrari's IP, Ferrari's new engine is actually more powerful and there's still nothing to the story"

*reality says hello and the engine is down on power, potentially the worst in the field and Binotto admits they've lost power*

"there was a SPY! and there was a settlement because of the spy and we're the victims here and the other teams are cheating"

lmao

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SiLo
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:08 pm
This was posted in the Ferrari engine thread but i think it rather belongs here ...
SiLo wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:18 am
So this article is quite interesting regarding the FIA deal and the Ferrari engine:

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... refresh_ce

The best summary I could find (from Reddit):

1) Red Bull and Mercedes suspected faul play by Ferrari regarding the engine, but their clarifications asked from the FIA initially amounted to nothing.

2) A FIA-person, who was embedded at Ferrari found out the trick Ferrari was pulling off (bypassing the fuel flow sensor) and forwarded that information to either Mercedes (or Red Bull) who then asked the FIA for clarification, leading to the TD that nerfed Ferrari, and the FIA-Ferrari settlement.

3) To put that into context; the FIA can't issue technical clarifications of their own volition. A team needs to prompt the FIA, upon which they can issue a TD. This FIA-person therefore handed over this info about the Ferrari engine to Mercedes.. allegedly, which eventually led to the TD.

4) Ferrari felt betrayed by this FIA-person (who in their eyes illegally shared Ferrari IP with others) and feel that Toto's wrath was in retaliation to Ferrari vetoeing him as Chase Carey's successor as the head of Formula 1.

5) It is believed (by those in or close to Ferrari) that other (read: most likely Mercedes) engines still operate in a grey area, while Ferrari is now fielding the only truly legal engine.

If this is the wrong thread let me know and I can move it.
This has to be some of the dumbest most desperate rambling about this entire saga by a mile ... and of course it was published by some small unknown italian site ...

Does anyone believe the FIA would install a spy(!) at a team just because the other teams think said team might be bending the rules? And then the FIA would give the info to another team so that the team could ask for further clarification (after initial requests were pretty much ignored?)

Didn't the FIA say they'd gladly make the settlement public but that Ferrari wouldn't allow it? They sure as hell wouldn't want that if the spy (lol) thing was true ...

Oh and the "everyone else is cheating and Ferrari is the only legal engine" bit? The cherry on top in this wonderful piece of fiction.

It's sad actually how italian outlets are deflecting and trying to paint the red team as a victim in some sort of conspiracy.

But it's the next logical step in the bs stories written by italian media:
"there's nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower but there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but it's actually more about the other teams and protecting Ferrari's IP and there's still nothing to the story"
"there was a whistleblower and there was a settlement but it's actually more about the other teams and protecting Ferrari's IP, Ferrari's new engine is actually more powerful and there's still nothing to the story"

*reality says hello and the engine is down on power, potentially the worst in the field and Binotto admits they've lost power*

"there was a SPY! and there was a settlement because of the spy and we're the victims here and the other teams are cheating"

lmao
The FIA person has told this story to the journalist, but it was someone inside Ferrari (a spy/ a mole) to inform the other teams and then the FIA which then has made the investigation and has issued the TDs .

This phrase “Qualcuno ha fatto avere alla FIA alcuni documenti che dimostravano come la Ferrari interpretasse il regolamento in modo troppo ‘audace’. Una talpa, in accordo con i concorrenti del Cavallino, ha permesso che la Federazione internazionale riaprisse l’inchiesta tecnica riguardo al motore. Si è trattato di una palese violazione del segreto industriale e questo fa comprendere il motivo del famigerato accordo. La Ferrari non ha ricevuto penalizzazioni, ma ha dovuto accettare di eliminare quella soluzione.”

means:

"Someone gave the FIA some documents that showed how Ferrari interpreted the regulation too" boldly ". A mole, in agreement with Cavallino's competitors, allowed the International Federation to reopen the technical investigation into the engine. It was a clear violation of industrial secrecy and this makes us understand the reason for the notorious agreement. Ferrari did not receive penalties, but had to agree to eliminate that solution. "

___
The above was pasted from Xwang in the Ferrari Engine thread. Whilst I know it may sound ridiculous it looks like there is some truth to it. It's starting to come together and make sense now. Something was leaked illegally, and the only way to punish the team because the thing that was leaked was also illegal, is to just close down that avenue of cheating but not really publish what was happening. I'm sure most of the teams have a good idea of what was going on, but likely are pushing because they want more specifics.
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