Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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gray41
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Image

Definitely a new shape to the area housing, guess it fits with the new nose.

Trivial question but how will Nicos 6 fit in this area?
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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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#AeroFrodo

BorisTheBlade
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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I'm quite a bit surprised that none of you cited AMuS' explanation as to why passing the crash test was so hard. So here is a translation in my own words:

As maybe most of you might know by now, the crash test is separated into different sections with different demands.
  • The first part is that while crashing the first 15cm of the crash structure you must not exceed 10g deceleration.
  • The second part is while absorbing the first 60kJ there must be no more than 20g deceleration.
Mercedes' interpretation to the first part was this:
The 15cm start at the leading edge of the front wing. So before you actually reach the nose-tip the first 15cm will already be gone. Having less than 10g while effectively crashing the front-wing was no problem.

But the FIA didn't agree with that interpretation. They demanded the first 15cm to start with the nose-tip.

So the challenge for Mercedes was to design a nose that is really short, must be very soft at the first 15cm and not too stiff after that in order to pass the second part as well.
That's why their band-aid was to effectively extend the nose-cone for the first 15cm until hey were able to pass the test with the short one.

Source: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 10277.html

/edit: Typos

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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Is it really possible that just 15 cm less of nose tunnel have so big influence on performance?
And what kind of gain we talk about?
Is it like shorter nose=more Df=better turn in=more speed in high speed corners?
If it is so, are they stepping into RB theritory as Aldo C. said few days back, that this is where W05 is lacking compared to RB?
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BorisTheBlade
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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cirrusflyer wrote:Is it really possible that just 15 cm less of nose tunnel have so big influence on performance?
And what kind of gain we talk about?
Is it like shorter nose=more Df=better turn in=more speed in high speed corners?
If it is so, are they stepping into RB theritory as Aldo C. said few days back, that this is where W05 is lacking compared to RB?
Well, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. If they try so hard at the expense of at least a lot of money then it must be a significant gain. According to them getting the upper side of the wing unobstructed seems to be of significance. And they said they designed the car with that nose in mind. According to AMuS the advertisements with that nose were produced as early as November.

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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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BorisTheBlade wrote:
cirrusflyer wrote:Is it really possible that just 15 cm less of nose tunnel have so big influence on performance?
And what kind of gain we talk about?
Is it like shorter nose=more Df=better turn in=more speed in high speed corners?
If it is so, are they stepping into RB theritory as Aldo C. said few days back, that this is where W05 is lacking compared to RB?
Well, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. If they try so hard at the expense of at least a lot of money then it must be a significant gain. According to them getting the upper side of the wing unobstructed seems to be of significance. And they said they designed the car with that nose in mind. According to AMuS the advertisements with that nose were produced as early as November.
Thank you for your answer. I guess we will be able to see this weekend. China circuit is a lot about high speed corners. Sector times will tell the story. Nose looks great and I think it is little higher than the old one.
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
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patrik
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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gray41 wrote:
Trivial question but how will Nicos 6 fit in this area?
06?

OO7
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Just like there are small sections cut out of the two number '4''s on Lewis' car, I expect there will be a small cutout at the bottom of the '6' on Nico's car. I don't think it will make much of a difference to the appearance of the number. Also Mercedes have tended to not run the pitot booms during qualification and the race.

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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my assumption is that it's about controlling how the turbulence from the pylons affect the front wing. At some point the air flow over any airfoil will transition from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent flow radiates out from the transition point in a cone shape, and thus has an effect on other aerodynamic elements around it like the main wing element, etc.

The Pylons don't look overly aerodynamic so i assume the transition to turbulent flow happens pretty far forward on them. with the old nose the transition might have happened before the trailing edge of the wing. If so that would affect the efficiency of the wing. with the new nose the transition point might be well behind the wing, and thus have little or no impact on it. If that's the case it will be more efficient, and thus they could lower the angle of attack of the elements to reduce drag oand allow cleaner flow to the rear of the car.

Basically anything you can do to make the front nose more efficient opens up opportunities down stream from it. I could see it potentially even being possible to to create a small sucking affect through the pylon opening.
Last edited by dans79 on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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aleks_ader
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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cirrusflyer wrote:
BorisTheBlade wrote:
cirrusflyer wrote:Is it really possible that just 15 cm less of nose tunnel have so big influence on performance?
And what kind of gain we talk about?
Is it like shorter nose=more Df=better turn in=more speed in high speed corners?
If it is so, are they stepping into RB theritory as Aldo C. said few days back, that this is where W05 is lacking compared to RB?
Well, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. If they try so hard at the expense of at least a lot of money then it must be a significant gain. According to them getting the upper side of the wing unobstructed seems to be of significance. And they said they designed the car with that nose in mind. According to AMuS the advertisements with that nose were produced as early as November.
Thank you for your answer. I guess we will be able to see this weekend. China circuit is a lot about high speed corners. Sector times will tell the story. Nose looks great and I think it is little higher than the old one.
According the rules i believe they cannot put it any higher, i think they stretch the rules with old already. That is just optical illusion. It seems they just add more undercut (more radios) near small coling entry (some-sort minor lifted leading edge). Remember this first 50 mmm from tip of the nose are from rule point of view crossection free zone, so they exploit that area even furher (as many team did the same).

i believe those nose had similar effect as last years camera mounting between wing pillars behind the main plane of FW.

to refresh memory look those picture: http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Nic ... 669872.jpg

Probably it encourage of use of some ground effect (car rake and braking increase that) from main plain and helps maintain low pressure zone under nose more efficient. I belive it also helps in "suction" of airstreame (relative according car yaw and roll movement) under body of car.

That could explain Merc (i think Costa words for AMUS) statement about "massive" (relatively subjective, but anyway)improving the stability (AERO balance between front vs. rear under MANY conditions or scenarios) of the car.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Although the nose tip may not be any higher, the fact that it starts farther back means that the space below it is larger. Why? Because the upper surface of the wing drops down to its trailing edge. Therefore the farther back you can place the nose tip, the more air you can flow under it without excessively speeding up that flow. Don't forget, if the flow above the wing is accelerated then you lose downforce because the neutral section can't be tuned to counter the effect of the nose tip flow.

It might be a small difference, maybe only 1% overall increase in downforce but 1% is an improvement.
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NewtonMeter
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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BorisTheBlade wrote:I'm quite a bit surprised that none of you cited AMuS' explanation as to why passing the crash test was so hard. So here is a translation in my own words:

As maybe most of you might know by now, the crash test is separated into different sections with different demands.
  • The first part is that while crashing the first 15cm of the crash structure you must not exceed 10g deceleration.
  • The second part is while absorbing the first 60kJ there must be no more than 20g deceleration.
Mercedes' interpretation to the first part was this:
The 15cm start at the leading edge of the front wing. So before you actually reach the nose-tip the first 15cm will already be gone. Having less than 10g while effectively crashing the front-wing was no problem.

But the FIA didn't agree with that interpretation. They demanded the first 15cm to start with the nose-tip.

So the challenge for Mercedes was to design a nose that is really short, must be very soft at the first 15cm and not too stiff after that in order to pass the second part as well.
That's why their band-aid was to effectively extend the nose-cone for the first 15cm until hey were able to pass the test with the short one.

Source: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 10277.html

/edit: Typos
Thank you for the translation. Its much appreciated!
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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Thank you Boris the Blade, aleks_ader, Just_a_fan!
Great explanation. I Appreciate your answers.
Would love to up-vote but I am not yet aloved.
Last edited by cirrusflyer on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
It's all about technology!
When you go fast, do not hesitate to go faster!

astracrazy
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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I wonder if they have a few updates backed up because they needed to get this nose on first, because that was the nose they were designed around?

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Cocles
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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astracrazy wrote:I wonder if they have a few updates backed up because they needed to get this nose on first, because that was the nose they were designed around?
I was thinking the same thing. If so, then the timing is nice as any "held up" updates will be facilitated by the summer move to the European theater.