Mercedes AMG F1 W07

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
User avatar
Samraj_official
6
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:19 am
Location: chennai,INDIA

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Pierce89 wrote:
DiogoBrand wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:Chill on the Newey boner. The intake below the main intake has been around for years on other cars.
Also what's so groundbreaking about it?
I have no idea, but when other dude called it genius, I laughed a good one.
me too... :)

PhillipM
PhillipM
358
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Nothing, it's nothing other cars haven't run for years :lol:

The Renault engine is still tighter around the shoulders, a trait that's followed on from their previous engines.

carisi2k
carisi2k
33
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Pierce89 wrote:Chill on the Newey boner. The intake below the main intake has been around for years on other cars.
Really. Which car?

User avatar
Pierce89
96
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:38 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:Chill on the Newey boner. The intake below the main intake has been around for years on other cars.
Really. Which car?
A bunch of different cars. I know STR used it last year. Williams used it before 2014 when the car was navy blue.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

wesley123
wesley123
228
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:Chill on the Newey boner. The intake below the main intake has been around for years on other cars.
Really. Which car?
MP4-25 has one, and following McLaren cars had one as well. The 2014 Marussia had one as well, and we all know how great that car was
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

User avatar
Blackout
760
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Carisi2k doesnt know what he's talking about here and I agree with PhillipM regarding the Renault V8 qualities
(raw performances/packaging/exhaust blowing etc) but dont underestimate the Merc PU packaging. Their PU is what Honda calls "a size zero engine" and It's IMO the best one in that regard.
All PUs are "size zero", except the Renault, but the Merc has the Ferrari and Honda design advantages, but not their disadvantages and it might be the smallest on the x,y,z axis when all its ancilliaries are in place. The Merc packaging is IMO the best regarding aero/drag, weight, weight distribution, heat management and even stiffness, on paper.
The Renault 2014 program was underfunded etc and they made some other strategic mistakes so they produced a very conventional bulky PU in contrast to their other engines which used to have that 'chassis-friendliness'.
But the Merc PU is the most chassis friendly PU and every chassis would dream to have it and it's a big part of their chassis and engine excellence IMO.

carisi2k
carisi2k
33
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

wesley123 wrote:
carisi2k wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:Chill on the Newey boner. The intake below the main intake has been around for years on other cars.
Really. Which car?
MP4-25 has one, and following McLaren cars had one as well. The 2014 Marussia had one as well, and we all know how great that car was
Fair enough on the mclaren although wasn't that hole for the trick rear wing?

Not really sure if that marussia qualifies as it just looks like an extra large intake with separate sections like the more modern variation in the mercedes and torro rosso.

krisfx
krisfx
30
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:07 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Samraj_official wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
DiogoBrand wrote:
Also what's so groundbreaking about it?
I have no idea, but when other dude called it genius, I laughed a good one.
me too... :)

IIRC it's for cooling oil... haha

User avatar
Pierce89
96
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:38 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

carisi2k wrote:
wesley123 wrote: MP4-25 has one, and following McLaren cars had one as well. The 2014 Marussia had one as well, and we all know how great that car was
Fair enough on the mclaren although wasn't that hole for the trick rear wing?

Not really sure if that marussia qualifies as it just looks like an extra large intake with separate sections like the more modern variation in the mercedes and torro rosso.
Well the '14-'15 str had it for sure .
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

flmkane
flmkane
34
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:13 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:And still people think that the Mercedes is just about the engine. It's obviously the best car in the round with excellent engine, downforce, driveability and tyre use.
The Mercedes isn't just about the engine but the engine advantage it has doesn't hurt when compared to Red Bull. If the RB12 had a Mercedes engine instead of a Renault, do you really think the RB12 would have only won 2 races this year? Look at all the power circuits where Red Bull was running skinny wings and still losing time down the straights to Merc powered cars with larger rear wings.

I'm not saying that the W07 is a bad chassis. I believe it is the best or at least the equal best with the Red Bull chassis on the grid. My point is that the engine allows the chassis to shine and that it does provide an advantage over Ferrari, Renault and Honda in terms of power, economy and packaging.
Why does it matter whether Red Bull has a better chassis? Who cares? It's about making the better CAR with your resources.

Suppose both RB and Merc spend $750 million per year. RB spends all of that on the chassis, Merc spends all of that on both chassis AND engine. In that scenario, Red Bull will absolutely have a better chassis, but Merc might just have a better CAR.

Ofcourse, this kind of an arguement is very oversimplified, but not invalid. It was the same in the past eras, for example when Williams had the most powerful BMW engine and Mclaren had the best chassis, but Ferrari was winning everything.

It's not about a better engine, chassis or driver. F1 is about having the better TEAM with a better CAR.

Eddie_Temple
Eddie_Temple
-1
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:49 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

This thread is completely derailed and I apologize for contributing to the nonsense but from a "supplier/customer" perspective it's interesting to consider the following:

RB is a Renault PU customer - no doubt the redbull chassis flattered the PU (2nd Place)
Look at all Merc customers with the supposedly "superior" packaging of the Merc PU - RB destroyed them all and even made a few look quite silly.

RB's chassis advantage tend to bring more to the table than a Merc PU does but it's fair to say a Merc PU in a RB chassis would be quite scary indeed. Sure you cannot buy a RB chassis for 20mil like you can the Merc PU - but that customer price doesnt reflect the billions in which Merc invested.
Welcome to the layer cake, son.

hurril
hurril
46
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

flmkane wrote:
carisi2k wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:And still people think that the Mercedes is just about the engine. It's obviously the best car in the round with excellent engine, downforce, driveability and tyre use.
The Mercedes isn't just about the engine but the engine advantage it has doesn't hurt when compared to Red Bull. If the RB12 had a Mercedes engine instead of a Renault, do you really think the RB12 would have only won 2 races this year? Look at all the power circuits where Red Bull was running skinny wings and still losing time down the straights to Merc powered cars with larger rear wings.

I'm not saying that the W07 is a bad chassis. I believe it is the best or at least the equal best with the Red Bull chassis on the grid. My point is that the engine allows the chassis to shine and that it does provide an advantage over Ferrari, Renault and Honda in terms of power, economy and packaging.
Why does it matter whether Red Bull has a better chassis? Who cares? It's about making the better CAR with your resources.

Suppose both RB and Merc spend $750 million per year. RB spends all of that on the chassis, Merc spends all of that on both chassis AND engine. In that scenario, Red Bull will absolutely have a better chassis, but Merc might just have a better CAR.

Ofcourse, this kind of an arguement is very oversimplified, but not invalid. It was the same in the past eras, for example when Williams had the most powerful BMW engine and Mclaren had the best chassis, but Ferrari was winning everything.

It's not about a better engine, chassis or driver. F1 is about having the better TEAM with a better CAR.
Actually it is invalid. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water. RB cannot affect the development of the engine, just like all the other customer teams. Yet they kick all of their asses despite having (almost) the worst engine. So their CAR (your capitalization) is in fact extremely good. Almost as good as another team that very clearly has the superior engine.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
446
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Difference between Merc and Manor, RB and renault highlight the difference the chassis can make. About 2 seconds a lap difference some of the lap delta's seen.

flmkane
flmkane
34
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:13 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

hurril wrote:
flmkane wrote:
carisi2k wrote:
The Mercedes isn't just about the engine but the engine advantage it has doesn't hurt when compared to Red Bull. If the RB12 had a Mercedes engine instead of a Renault, do you really think the RB12 would have only won 2 races this year? Look at all the power circuits where Red Bull was running skinny wings and still losing time down the straights to Merc powered cars with larger rear wings.

I'm not saying that the W07 is a bad chassis. I believe it is the best or at least the equal best with the Red Bull chassis on the grid. My point is that the engine allows the chassis to shine and that it does provide an advantage over Ferrari, Renault and Honda in terms of power, economy and packaging.
Why does it matter whether Red Bull has a better chassis? Who cares? It's about making the better CAR with your resources.

Suppose both RB and Merc spend $750 million per year. RB spends all of that on the chassis, Merc spends all of that on both chassis AND engine. In that scenario, Red Bull will absolutely have a better chassis, but Merc might just have a better CAR.

Ofcourse, this kind of an arguement is very oversimplified, but not invalid. It was the same in the past eras, for example when Williams had the most powerful BMW engine and Mclaren had the best chassis, but Ferrari was winning everything.

It's not about a better engine, chassis or driver. F1 is about having the better TEAM with a better CAR.
Actually it is invalid. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water. RB cannot affect the development of the engine, just like all the other customer teams. Yet they kick all of their asses despite having (almost) the worst engine. So their CAR (your capitalization) is in fact extremely good. Almost as good as another team that very clearly has the superior engine.
If you would debate with logic rather than fanboyism that would be very nice.

In the V8 era, Renault gave Red Bull a very good engine. Down on power but very programmable and perfect for the exhaust blown diffuser. Renault was in fact very annoyed that Red Bull took all the credit for their success, and kept claiming that the Renault V8 was inferior.

Also, until 2016 Red Bull was not a customer team, they were the Renault works team. They had a strong influence on the engine development. Part of their problems in 2014 and 2015 was because they pushed to have the engine development accelerated, bringing in premature updates and that negatively affected engine reliability. Their incessant whining led a breakdown in relation, thus spurring Renault to resurrect their own F1 team.

You cant have a car, without an engine . If it's a bad engine, it's a bad car.

flmkane
flmkane
34
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:13 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W07

Post

Eddie_Temple wrote:This thread is completely derailed and I apologize for contributing to the nonsense but from a "supplier/customer" perspective it's interesting to consider the following:

RB is a Renault PU customer - no doubt the redbull chassis flattered the PU (2nd Place)
Look at all Merc customers with the supposedly "superior" packaging of the Merc PU - RB destroyed them all and even made a few look quite silly.

RB's chassis advantage tend to bring more to the table than a Merc PU does but it's fair to say a Merc PU in a RB chassis would be quite scary indeed. Sure you cannot buy a RB chassis for 20mil like you can the Merc PU - but that customer price doesnt reflect the billions in which Merc invested.
Obviously Red Bull has the better chassis, but to win in F1 you cant just depend on a good car, its also about how you allocate your resources. It's possible that Mercedes could have had a better chassis if they had allocated a greater portion of their resources behind chassis development. However they instead chose to allocate resources to the PU. It's worked out for them pretty well.

Another thing to consider is that the Mercedes and Red Bull chassis seem to have very different philosophies. I'm not an aero expert, but just by looking at onboard videos and watching races, the two cars behave very very different.