2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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henry
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:14 pm
henry wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:05 pm
In what way do you think the teams would try to undermine the intentions of the 2021 regs? It would be in their interests to build a car that follows really well so the only avenue will be to produce a disruptive wake. Whether they could do both would be interesting particularly since the following would be the absolute priority.
They won't be actively/directly trying to undermine it.

But, just like in every previous rule change, the engineers will be doing everything they can to decrease lap times, and that will inevitably lead to developments technical or otherwise that make it hard for the cars to race closely.

For example Bubble gum tires and mandatory compound usage was introduced to, force more than 1 pit stop to offer alternative strategies. What did the teams do? That's right, they quickly figured out technical and strategic changes that made it so they only had to do one pit stop.

As I said before the teams have more resources, they will eventually figure out how to negate anything put in place by the fia that hinders them. Usually the situation ends up worse than it was before.
Completely agree they will be aiming to minimise lap times and that, in itself, makes racing more difficult. But I’m not sure that definitely means any improvements in the ability to follow more closely will be negated or offset.

But you’re right that the teams do adopt techniques and methodologies with only one goal, finishing as high as possible, and whether it’s a spectacle that people will want to see is low on their list of nice to haves.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:31 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:19 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:15 pm
Nonsense, there was no chance
track in front with no car in it is a chance to go faster
Did you forget HULK in the run off? There were 3 or 4 cars ahead of LEC, there was never a chance, the track was blocked, LEC saw it before VET did, or else VET would have got thru when he passed LEC.
okay i am sensing we may not be going to see it the same :) BUT this is how Seb sees it: that between T1 and T2 Charles backed off instead of pressing forwards behind Valtteri. He couldn't know there wouldn't be a gap beyond. Seb had a lap already, and he was only going to improve it with a tow, so there was no point passing Charles. Once Charles started waiting, with that session time, that was it, game over. Shades of rosberg, Alonso in Hungary 07, that kinda suspicion, hence Seb's not gonna wave Charles through this Sunday thanks very much, if he can find any excuse at all

But Mattia had him covered

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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henry wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:33 pm
Completely agree they will be aiming to minimise lap times and that, in itself, makes racing more difficult. But I’m not sure that definitely means any improvements in the ability to follow more closely will be negated or offset.

But you’re right that the teams do adopt techniques and methodologies with only one goal, finishing as high as possible, and whether it’s a spectacle that people will want to see is low on their list of nice to haves.
yes well the basic idea of a reverse wdc Saturday race is specifically to make it a spectacle, so that the race on Sunday isn't started in speed order already like now, and this is what the teams are signing up for. then yes once the rules are set they only wanna win, but as you've pointed out that design of weekend will motivate the teams to design cars that are good at following and passing, as it's turned it into an overtaking competition

the issue now seems to be that the first pass at the car regs defines the cars too much so there isn't much scope for actual engineering design, but hopefully il veto will get that fixed

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henry
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:56 pm
henry wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:33 pm
Completely agree they will be aiming to minimise lap times and that, in itself, makes racing more difficult. But I’m not sure that definitely means any improvements in the ability to follow more closely will be negated or offset.

But you’re right that the teams do adopt techniques and methodologies with only one goal, finishing as high as possible, and whether it’s a spectacle that people will want to see is low on their list of nice to haves.
yes well the basic idea of a reverse wdc Saturday race is specifically to make it a spectacle, so that the race on Sunday isn't started in speed order already like now, and this is what the teams are signing up for. then yes once the rules are set they only wanna win, but as you've pointed out that design of weekend will motivate the teams to design cars that are good at following and passing, as it's turned it into an overtaking competition

the issue now seems to be that the first pass at the car regs defines the cars too much so there isn't much scope for actual engineering design, but hopefully il veto will get that fixed
It’s not clear to me what they’re going to do. But if they line up 2021 cars in pace order, and the following and hence passing is as they claim from simulations, then 20 laps in they’ll all be in pace order and cruise home.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:56 pm
and this is what the teams are signing up for.
They haven't signed up for anything. They agreed to to do 2 or 3 trials next year. it will probably end up being one as the teams will argue 2 or 3 could effect the championship.

I fully expect the top teams will crush this garbage and it will never happen in 2021.


Inappropriate comment has been removed. No need to mock the handicapped
Last edited by dans79 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aral
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Why are some people regurgitating Monza? If you want to discuss that race, please go to that thread. This thread is for the Russian GP.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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henry wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:07 pm
It’s not clear to me what they’re going to do. But if they line up 2021 cars in pace order, and the following and hence passing is as they claim from simulations, then 20 laps in they’ll all be in pace order and cruise home.
yes they could overdo it couldn't they, even for Sochi, if they don't join all the dots. This year it was too hard among the top cars even with DRS, but if that 5-10% figure is real then they have to change the format

dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:02 pm
but if that 5-10% figure is real then they have to change the format
Nope, no need to change something that isn't broken.

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henry
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:09 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:02 pm
but if that 5-10% figure is real then they have to change the format
Nope, no need to change something that isn't broken.
This is looking to the future. So of course it isn’t broken, it hasn’t happened yet.

Maybe nothing will change in terms of the racing, but then they will have asked the teams to make a huge change in aero to no effect. I don’t think that’s what they intend. But we’ll have to wait and see.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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F1Krof
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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Mattchu wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:28 pm
F1Krof wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:44 am
MtthsMlw wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:25 am
I think this will be Leclercs toughest race after the summer break, he can hope that Vettel quickly gets past Hamilton.
Don't worry, it will the their easiest race for Ferrari's. There is little to no degradation on this track. Even though it has two long straights it is very hard to overtake as the last sector is very twisty, a good traction out of the last corner will suffice to cover the position.

And as for Mercedes' strategy starting on Meds is no feat of advantageous strategy, its just they're desperately trying something different as they have no alternative. The tires will not play any role here, even if they do, going Soft - Medium towards the end its better because you can push the Meds without worry. So yeah, its gonna be a Ferrari one two, it's just a shame that my bookie doesn't have F1 quotes :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
=D> =D>

Saved yourself a few quid...
It turned out to be like that.

However, in reality if there wasn't for the Vettel's DNF I would have been right.
Wroom wroom

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:09 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:02 pm
but if that 5-10% figure is real then they have to change the format
Nope, no need to change something that isn't broken.
lol seriously. they ARE going to change the aero because it is obviously broken as we saw with Max/Valtteri/Lewis/Seb/Charles following each other gormlessly round and round and round Sochi even with its slow corner->long straight->slow corner recipe until it was all decided by a car breakdown.

It was already bad then in 2017 they made the cars "look fast" with big tyres and swept wings to get more 9-year-olds watching. They've stuck a plaster on that for 3 years but now they've got real and done their CFD and wind tunnel.

so now the science IS saying they've found a 5-10x reduction in downforce loss from following. So these seriously clever people who live and breathe racing numbers are gonna try a reverse Saturday short race. Adrian Newey, James Allison, Mattia, all that lot. They understand how it can work over a number of races to make it an actual racing race :idea:

dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:47 pm
lol seriously. they ARE going to change the aero because it is obviously broken as we saw with Max/Valtteri/Lewis/Seb/Charles following each other gormlessly round and round and round Sochi even with its slow corner->long straight->slow corner recipe until it was all decided by a car breakdown.

It was already bad then in 2017 they made the cars "look fast" with big tyres and swept wings to get more 9-year-olds watching. They've stuck a plaster on that for 3 years but now they've got real and done their CFD and wind tunnel.
  1. Lewis ran down and overtook Seb in Bahrain, and probably would have done the same to Charles if Charles's didn't have an engine issue.
  2. Max ran down and overtook several people in Austria.
  3. Lewis ran down and overtook Max in Hungary.
  4. Lewis ran down overtook Vettel in Spa and was in the process of doing it to Charles before he ran out of laps.
  5. Lewis ran down Charles in Italy and would have passed him it wasn't for the free pass he got under the new "let them race" bologna
  6. Not to mention all the l;esser overtakes we have had this season.
I see lots of overtake, its just not enough for the ADD section of the fan base, and the thing many here either don't get or are conveniently overlooking is that their will never be enough for these people.
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:47 pm
so now the science IS saying they've found a 5-10x reduction in downforce loss from following. So these seriously clever people who live and breathe racing numbers are gonna try a reverse Saturday short race. Adrian Newey, James Allison, Mattia, all that lot. They understand how it can work over a number of races to make it an actual racing race :idea:
You know another thing all these guys have in common? They've all helped produce some major lemons over the years, so their not nearly as infallible as you are trying to make them out to be.

dans79
dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:11 am
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:47 pm
lol seriously. they ARE going to change the aero because it is obviously broken as we saw with Max/Valtteri/Lewis/Seb/Charles following each other gormlessly round and round and round Sochi even with its slow corner->long straight->slow corner recipe until it was all decided by a car breakdown.

It was already bad then in 2017 they made the cars "look fast" with big tyres and swept wings to get more 9-year-olds watching. They've stuck a plaster on that for 3 years but now they've got real and done their CFD and wind tunnel.
  1. Lewis ran down and overtook Seb in Bahrain, and probably would have done the same to Charles if Charles's didn't have an engine issue.
  2. Max ran down and overtook several people in Austria.
  3. Lewis ran down and overtook Max in Hungary.
  4. Lewis ran down overtook Vettel in Spa and was in the process of doing it to Charles before he ran out of laps.
  5. Lewis ran down Charles in Italy and would have passed him it wasn't for the free pass he got under the new "let them race" bologna
  6. Not to mention all the l;esser overtakes we have had this season.
I see lots of overtake, its just not enough for the ADD section of the fan base, and the thing many here either don't get or are conveniently overlooking is that their will never be enough for these people.
izzy wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:47 pm
so now the science IS saying they've found a 5-10x reduction in downforce loss from following. So these seriously clever people who live and breathe racing numbers are gonna try a reverse Saturday short race. Adrian Newey, James Allison, Mattia, all that lot. They understand how it can work over a number of races to make it an actual racing race :idea:
You know another thing all these guys have in common? They've all helped produce some major lemons over the years, so their not nearly as infallible as you are trying to make them out to be.
Also, if these "seriously clever" people think is might be to easy as you've hinted at. It seems far more intelligent to dial the changes back to strike the proper balance, than resort to some ridiculous gimmick.
izzy wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:13 pm
There is some passing now, with 50% disruption, that's because of the tow, tyres and basic car/driver delta. So add all that downforce back and what's gonna happen? They have to be careful not to make passing too easy, as once all the faster cars have passed all the slower cars that's race over. As then the cars are in SPEED ORDER :P

dans79
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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henry wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:32 pm
Maybe nothing will change in terms of the racing, but then they will have asked the teams to make a huge change in aero to no effect. I don’t think that’s what they intend. But we’ll have to wait and see.
The fact the Brawn has changed his stripes since the beginning of the season, suggest something isn't kosher.

digitalrurouni
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:17 pm
digitalrurouni wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:11 pm
Leclerc had slower race pace than Vettel. if Vettel was in the fight I think most Hamilton could have gotten was 2nd place.
How can you come to this conclusion when LEC stayed within 2s of VET for the first 9 laps at least?
Not what I recall but even if he could hold on only for 9 laps Vettel then took off and had over a 4 second lead and then Ferrari failed to put him the lap after Leclerc because they didn't think even then Leclerc could get ahead. It was blindingly obvious. Ferrari handled this poorly.