2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

True Nathan, Lewis did do it in the correct way (and lost 2 places, ironically that might have gained him the win in the end) whilst others did not. What I think, in this specific corner if you try to make it and loose the car late it would be absolutely impossible to go around the bollard. I saw that in the Free Practice sessions already. I wondered what the stewards would do. You have a rule, you need to go around the bollard, but if you try to make the corner and then miss it you have no chance to comply. He should have been penalized (if you commit but don't make it that is the consequence) but got away with it due to the place where he drifted off track. I thought it a very tough spot to properly police, a high kerb here would have been better but that would have ended up with broken wings / spun cars on the track which can be dangerous and possibly kill the race for someone who just arrives in that corner.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:11 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:37 pm
Yes, that was a really comfortable way to loose track position to Albon. My point is not that he indeed chose a spot where you can bail out. In fact, Max was also trying to line up for this same spot against Perez. No, my point is that now the perogative is he was sensibly waiting it out, I don’t think that was the aim. He just lost two spots to vettel and Verstappen after the T9 off track excursion , that caused him to be further down. Then he lost one more position to Albon after the Vettel attempt. He was trying but not succeeding in the first stint. Then he could stay out and his tires worn as the track got a little dryer (still wet) just as he was there and not in the Mix.

And Lewis was sure trying tombe there, track position was king, that is also why he took quite some risk with Riccardo at the start. The fact it was a bit unsuccessful in the end aided his victory chances.
Lewis was trying an overtake on Vettel because he was quicker than Vettel. Getting past him would have aided him to get and keep even more tyre temperature. Being stuck behind Vettel wasn't helping him. So he tried an overtake in a safe place, and bailed out when it was obviously not going to work out. And he lost a spot. But that was all he lost. His earlier loss of track position at T9 was because his tyres were not working properly. But he didn't lose anything other than a couple of places, no harm done, carry on.

Compare to Max's attempt to pass Perez (who he was quicker than just as Hamilton was quicker than Vettel) that resulted in a big spin - could have been race ending had it gone towards the barriers over the grass - a loss of places to Albon, Vettel and Hamilton behind plus an additional loss of track time by having to pit to replace flat spotted tyres. That was just down to Max being impatient and not thinking through what might happen. That corner, T11, was very wet and any instability in the car would likely result in a spin. So crossing the wake of the car in front at that point was just asking for a big spin. And that's what he got. It was a great save to avoid the crossing the grass in to the barrier.

Two attempts to overtake with very different outcomes - caused by a different level of experience I think. Lewis has made those mistakes in the past, Max is making them now. Max will, hopefully, learn and take that experience forward. We will all watch with interest to see if he does.
Max was doing just the same on Perez as Lewis with Vettel, lining up for a overtake attempt in the exact same corner. The "problem" here was, the reason Max went for it, was that Perez made a mistake in T9 (like later in the race (much worse that time) where he again refused to go around the bollard) so Max got very close already too early in the shallow turn coming on to that straight. In fact, I think the more inexperienced Max would have put him next to Perez already in that corner. Now he lined up but got too close. A slight misjudgment of relative speed. He needed to be very close to make it work (if you are not the same happens as with Lewis on Vettel, it wont work and you'll have to abort) but he was a bit too close just too early. In fact, If he had missed his attempt like Lewis I am quite sure he would have also been chastised.

And doing it on engine power on that straight is easier for a Mercedes against a Ferrari then for a Honda against a Mercedes. Keep that in mind please when judging the decision making process. He had to try his (maybe one) chance or remain stuck behind Perez and see Stroll drive away for the victory.

It failed, cost him dearly but I don't think it was such a bad decision. If he wanted to win he needed to overtake.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
El Scorchio
55
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:26 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:18 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:51 pm


The question is not whether they could have extended but whether, had they done so, the tyres would have worn too far. If they had done so, the cars would have lost pace at a high rate and also risked a failure. Indeed, Hamilton's worry was that he would suffer a mechanical failure of the tyre and the team were able to tell him that Bottas's tyres showed sufficient rubber left - on their car - to be able to go the distance.

Maybe Mercedes were lucky in that they weren't, in the initial part of the race, actually fighting for the win/podium. They were in the position of being able to see what happened and let the race come to them by allowing Hamilton to roll the dice on staying out. Maybe Ferrari / RedBull didn't feel they had that option. Mercedes really had nothing to lose, did they?
True about Merc waiting- they were in the position RBR and Ferrari are sometimes when they are able to just see what's happening and react (or not) to circumstance and try something a little different, and sometimes it pays off big.
Plus they have RP in the mix. Perez would have never pitted out and away before Max. Just hold him up and have Lance win.

Lewis did actually make an attempt at Vettel. Or did we all forget about that? Failed badly (cost him an extra position). It was not a question of waiting, they were trying but just not capable. In fact, If lewis hadn't missed turn 9 (and loose position to Vettel and Verstappen) It would (should really) have been him stuck behind Perez.
It just would have meant Hamilton was stuck behind a car further up the field than the one he actually ended up being stuck behind (Vettel) for pt 1 of the race while the tyres weren't working. He'd have just, I suspect, gone on to win by an even bigger margin because when Perez tyres started to go he caught and passed him and pulled away to win extremely quickly. (all in the space of nine laps or so?) I don't think it would have altered their strategy either. So the attempt on Vettel is a bit of a moot point with regard to any sort of effect on the race overall or strategy. I'm not sure why it's relevant?

I don't mean that they were biding their time on, and from, lap 1- obviously you try and make up positions there and he just ran wide on cold brakes and tyres- but crucially kept the car pointing in the right direction (unlike all those who span during the race either trying moves or just because of the conditions)
More like in the middle portion they were able to let the tyres and the race come to them and didn't feel the need to force a move or react to other pit stops/follow the strategy of the teams around them and try something different like RBR often does to mitigate a pace disadvantage.

User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Why make the attempt (and lose a position to Albon). Had Albon not spun out in front of Lewis he would have very likely not won. It is not so moot at all. My point is more that it is now being written to a plan, but I think it sort of fell that way for him.

Again, and I have said that several times before. Still took that opportunity very well and made the tires last while going fast.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
El Scorchio
55
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:27 pm
Had Albon not spun out in front of Lewis he would have very likely not won.
I'm not sure you can just say that so matter of factly. There's absolutely no way of knowing at all, especially as Hamilton finished 46 seconds ahead anyway. And you can't just say 'had Albon not spun out' because he did.

If you play the 'if's' game then of course you can come up with a totally different result. I don't know if you're trying to downplay Hamiton's performance a bit or looking to defend the Red Bull boys against the mistakes they made?

User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:38 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:27 pm
Had Albon not spun out in front of Lewis he would have very likely not won.
I'm not sure you can just say that so matter of factly. There's absolutely no way of knowing at all, especially as Hamilton finished 46 seconds ahead anyway. And you can't just say 'had Albon not spun out' because he did.

If you play the 'if's' game then of course you can come up with a totally different result. I don't know if you're trying to downplay Hamiton's performance a bit or looking to defend the Red Bull boys against the mistakes they made?
I have not downplayed it one single bit, In fact, read my initial comments on Hamiltons performance right after the race please. But the up polishing part is where I have a bit of trouble with. Saying missing the attempt on Vettel was all part of the cautious plan, losing position to Albon was of no consequence (as he spun). Max would have been I don't know how many second quicker if he wasn't stuck behind Perez. Hamilton also lost time behind Vettel (enough so that he radioed it in "man I am losing so much time here") and he would have lost time behind Albon too. You can't say that as he won by 46 seconds he would have had margin. We will never know how long (if at all) it would have taken to get passed Albon. In fact, I thought at that point Albon was going to win the race.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/