[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 pm
How many aerodynamicists will be happy that their job ended up being copying Mercedes design.
Indeed, of course they still needed to (re)design all the structures and details... But the whole thing is remarkable. It doesn't seem to be a case of adapting ideas, but rather (almost) exactly replicating aero surfacing down to the smallest details.

Surely the Racing Point engineers would have had ideas, "This is how we can improve this!", "While this is good, this would make it even better!", yet it doesn't seem they were allowed to incorporate them. :(

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For example is that Mercedes brake drum really the best solution, or would be a bigger brake duct with more blowing (like Red Bull) have worked better? We will never know, as it doesn't seem the Racing Point engineers were given any freedom to develop improved designs. :(

FittingMechanics
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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To me, it is a really risky approach as if you become known as a copycat team you will have trouble attracting really strong talent, which in turn means that you will have trouble moving away from copying other designs. It may give them an edge early on this year plus they could switch toward 2021 earlier but if they end up doing it more often, they will be committed to being a midfield team forever.

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izzy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:21 am
FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 pm
How many aerodynamicists will be happy that their job ended up being copying Mercedes design.
Indeed, of course they still needed to (re)design all the structures and details... But the whole thing is remarkable. It doesn't seem to be a case of adapting ideas, but rather (almost) exactly replicating aero surfacing down to the smallest details.

Surely the Racing Point engineers would have had ideas, "This is how we can improve this!", "While this is good, this would make it even better!", yet it doesn't seem they were allowed to incorporate them. :(

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For example is that Mercedes brake drum really the best solution, or would be a bigger brake duct with more blowing (like Red Bull) have worked better? We will never know, as it doesn't seem the Racing Point engineers were given any freedom to develop improved designs. :(
But they've been basically allowed to put last year's best car in their wind tunnel and see how it was done. They must've learned so much

Diesel
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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If this perhaps works too well, it could cause an even bigger stir. Imagine if they start getting 3rd & 4th at every race behind Mercedes. Ferrari & Red Bull are going to kick up an absolute stink.

Also, if Perez starts out performing Stroll, I can see him getting the boot mid-season. Can't have someone taking podiums away from dearest son.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

molo
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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It's SILLY to believe that a mid field team can win a world championship in this technology era. I don't get why everybody is so mad about it, perhaps McLaren supporters?

bosyber
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:21 am
FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 pm
How many aerodynamicists will be happy that their job ended up being copying Mercedes design.
Indeed, of course they still needed to (re)design all the structures and details... But the whole thing is remarkable. It doesn't seem to be a case of adapting ideas, but rather (almost) exactly replicating aero surfacing down to the smallest details.

Surely the Racing Point engineers would have had ideas, "This is how we can improve this!", "While this is good, this would make it even better!", yet it doesn't seem they were allowed to incorporate them. :(

[snip]

https://i.imgur.com/k8gyTfe.png?1

For example is that Mercedes brake drum really the best solution, or would be a bigger brake duct with more blowing (like Red Bull) have worked better? We will never know, as it doesn't seem the Racing Point engineers were given any freedom to develop improved designs. :(
Well, if they really also got to see why these shapes were chosen, I suppose we will see how they develop the car from here, right? Might well get to those improved RP brake drums, maybe evolve the barge-boards too in a way that follows from what they did last year, but combined with understanding how the W10 worked too?

In principle I agree that I do not want to see this be a universal path to success, but I am not sure it will be as big of an issue as you see it, if it remains a one off for this year, and this team.

Haas probably learned something about working with components you did not design last year too, so I do think there is a clear notion of the disadvantage if you are a team that wants to (as RP do!) move up the grid and be a long-time competitor. Then again, just imagine WIlliams would have gone this route a few years ago, had learned from it where they were lacking ... short term it can be a useful move.

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nevill3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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One of my main concerns with the imitation of another car is that a teams need to have total integration, when I first saw that Paddy Lowe had moved to Williams I thought well they will jump forward next year......but in reality only having partial knowledge of a cars design and processes can lead to an inability to either resolve any issues or develop through the season so Williams faltered.
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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bosyber wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Well, if they really also got to see why these shapes were chosen, I suppose we will see how they develop the car from here, right?
Racing Point claimed they developed all designs themselves, and so certainly would not have any access to the motivation of the Mercedes designers.
“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.

“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... TCr8x.html

What I find surprising, is that in drawing inspiration from the Mercedes W10 design (which is legal) right down to the brake ducts and stiffening braces on winglets, that Racing Point were not able to develop large-scale improvements on the W10 design in any areas? :?: :wtf:

Did Racing Point really see no advantage in retaining a high sidepod inlet, which they already had, and which Mercedes themselves have switched to? :?:

Internally the design seems to be Racing Point's own. =D>
bosyber wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Haas probably learned something about working with components you did not design last year too
Andy Green says Racing Point designed all components, "all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch".

Ringleheim
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:53 am
bosyber wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Well, if they really also got to see why these shapes were chosen, I suppose we will see how they develop the car from here, right?
Racing Point claimed they developed all designs themselves, and so certainly would not have any access to the motivation of the Mercedes designers.
“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.

“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... TCr8x.html

What I find surprising, is that in drawing inspiration from the Mercedes W10 design (which is legal) right down to the brake ducts and stiffening braces on winglets, that Racing Point were not able to develop large-scale improvements on the W10 design in any areas? :?: :wtf:

Did Racing Point really see no advantage in retaining a high sidepod inlet, which they already had, and which Mercedes themselves have switched to? :?:

Internally the design seems to be Racing Point's own. =D>
bosyber wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:47 pm
Haas probably learned something about working with components you did not design last year too
Andy Green says Racing Point designed all components, "all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch".
You can't pick and choose pieces from different cars and throw them on the same car. It doesn't work that way. All of the pieces of a single car have to work in connection with each other .

When they decided to copy last year's Mercedes, it meant going with that car in its entirety, including the side pods.

Folks are suggesting they won't know how to develop the car, but why not? Why not start with this as a base, throw it in a wind tunnel, and work to develop it from this baseline?

I don't know how well this is going to play out, but it might not be any worse than if they had just made their own car in a traditional manner.

Ringleheim
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Diesel wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:00 am
If this perhaps works too well, it could cause an even bigger stir. Imagine if they start getting 3rd & 4th at every race behind Mercedes. Ferrari & Red Bull are going to kick up an absolute stink.

Also, if Perez starts out performing Stroll, I can see him getting the boot mid-season. Can't have someone taking podiums away from dearest son.
I'm a big Ferrari fan and would like to see them winning races this year. Having said that, if Ferrari have made as bad a car as it seems, I will absolutely be rooting for Racing Point and their fake pink Mercedes to be on podiums, not just "do somewhat well".

It would create a stir! I think that would be great and create some interest as a fan.

Watching Lewis beat Bottas in the only 2 cars capable of winning a race, most of the time, is really not very interesting.

pipex
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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I love their bold decision to reverse engineer the W10. I think that this change of concept is a great validation of the tools that RP are using to design their car. It is no small feat that the car is already making good lap times with an entirely different design. This may bode well for their future car, with the complete change that will go next year. Maybe they decided to start with basically a clone of the W10 in order to test if their reverse engineering was upto the task and they could reproduce the performance levels?.
If they could make use of their previous knowledge to improve this different concept it will get interesting ...
"We will have to wait and see".

bigpat
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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The fact that Racing Point use the complete Mercedes W 10 front and rear suspension/ gearbox, dictates that it looks the same! I would think that copying last years car as a base, and tweaking it would be an indication that Racing Point weren't confident enough in their own concept. Remember that the 2018 Force India used the 2017 tub with re-inforcement for the Halo, and last years car wasn't a real step.

In the end, copying doesn't mean that it will work to the same level as the W10. Even if it did, they are still a season behind in design terms. The secrets of Mercedes speed in 2020, are not it the 2019 car....

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Godius
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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This seems promising. I reckon that Ferrari will be ahead in Melbourne but RP leading the midfield firmly seems plausible.

dtro
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:14 am
To me, it is a really risky approach as if you become known as a copycat team you will have trouble attracting really strong talent, which in turn means that you will have trouble moving away from copying other designs. It may give them an edge early on this year plus they could switch toward 2021 earlier but if they end up doing it more often, they will be committed to being a midfield team forever.
I found it interesting to hear James Allison talking about the changes from the W10 to the W11, and how the W10 still had room for development (which I'm sure is always the case), but in this case with the RP20 being a copy of the W10 it does stand to reason that they have some room to improve their package.

I am curious to see how this ends up panning out over the course of a few seasons, like you said it won't really be an option to do this next year.

LM10
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Godius wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:13 pm
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1231927725113430016

This seems promising. I reckon that Ferrari will be ahead in Melbourne but RP leading the midfield firmly seems plausible.
Of course they will lead the midfield with the W10. Racing Point copied it to it's smallest details. Nothing impressive about that job in this regard and a shame the engineers didn't get the opportunity to build a car with their own ideas.