Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Blackout
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I said it's interesting not "it's spot on" :mrgreen:
Do you know how the things are arranged inside the V? I dont think so, but he, the artist, maybe he saw some of those parts. His compressor air inlet and outlet are bizarre and certainly wrong, but maybe he just misinterpreted what he saw :P

Regarding the turbo height, look at their 2014 gearbox and at the heat shielding for the turbine exhaust pipe. It suggests the pipe goes slightly below the engine mounting points :-k
Image

Same for 2017
Image

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Today i have been considerig that Ferrari could have used any of these things:

Hydrogen flames to start combustion. Hydrogen can either be stored in a tank (very dangerous) or maybe generated from a dense solid.. The gas would be fed into the chamber. Hydrogen flames are much faster than petrol and thus would really aid the TJI.

Ozone misting to stabilize combustion. (ozone generator powered by "Auxiliary" power take-off from ERS which is unlimited in the rules.

You don't think any of these are illegal?
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

hape
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:09 am
Today i have been considerig that Ferrari could have used any of these things:

Hydrogen flames to start combustion. Hydrogen can either be stored in a tank (very dangerous) or maybe generated from a dense solid.. The gas would be fed into the chamber. Hydrogen flames are much faster than petrol and thus would really aid the TJI.

Ozone misting to stabilize combustion. (ozone generator powered by "Auxiliary" power take-off from ERS which is unlimited in the rules.

You don't think any of these are illegal?
I would guess hydrogen out of a chemical reaction or pressurized in a tank and fed to the combustion would surely help getting performance but easy for the FiA to detect and plain cheating.

My guess is they somehow managed to gain performance by getting higher flow then necessary in the braking zones, somehow have it stored in high pressure area just before the injectors. In the acceleration phase use it as an extra boost. The only thing that makes this theory fragil is that the FiA should be able to see that because the actual flow measured by the flowmeter doesn’t correspond with the sum of the flow through the injectors in these phases.

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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hape wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:09 am
Today i have been considerig that Ferrari could have used any of these things:

Hydrogen flames to start combustion. Hydrogen can either be stored in a tank (very dangerous) or maybe generated from a dense solid.. The gas would be fed into the chamber. Hydrogen flames are much faster than petrol and thus would really aid the TJI.

Ozone misting to stabilize combustion. (ozone generator powered by "Auxiliary" power take-off from ERS which is unlimited in the rules.

You don't think any of these are illegal?
I would guess hydrogen out of a chemical reaction or pressurized in a tank and fed to the combustion would surely help getting performance but easy for the FiA to detect and plain cheating.

My guess is they somehow managed to gain performance by getting higher flow then necessary in the braking zones, somehow have it stored in high pressure area just before the injectors. In the acceleration phase use it as an extra boost. The only thing that makes this theory fragil is that the FiA should be able to see that because the actual flow measured by the flowmeter doesn’t correspond with the sum of the flow through the injectors in these phases.
I know EGR is not allowed, but any other way to 're use' a mix with un-burned value left in it?
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:09 am
... Ferrari could have used ..
Hydrogen flames to start combustion......Hydrogen flames are much faster than petrol and thus would really aid the TJI. ....
methane is easily generated from the fuel (eg it occurs in combustion anyway ) - and will do the above
(engines with methane-fuelled 'TJI' will combust gasoline main fuel leaner than with gasoline-fuelled 'TJI'

and .... re EGR ....
external EGR is banned but internal EGR can readily be arranged and might occur anyway

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The main difference is that internal EGR cannot be cooled so it's far less useful.
nah pop no style

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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:20 pm
The main difference is that internal EGR cannot be cooled so it's far less useful.
I was thinking of getting extra calorific content in without it coming through the injector and being regulated.
There could easily be a system to pass some unburned charge back in, but don't know about timing it as it could not be 'stored' (could it??)
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Don't remember the exact wording in the regulations, but neither exhaust gases nor blow-by can be re-routed back to the inlet legally.
nah pop no style

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:17 pm
hape wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:09 am
Today i have been considerig that Ferrari could have used any of these things:

Hydrogen flames to start combustion. Hydrogen can either be stored in a tank (very dangerous) or maybe generated from a dense solid.. The gas would be fed into the chamber. Hydrogen flames are much faster than petrol and thus would really aid the TJI.

Ozone misting to stabilize combustion. (ozone generator powered by "Auxiliary" power take-off from ERS which is unlimited in the rules.

You don't think any of these are illegal?
I would guess hydrogen out of a chemical reaction or pressurized in a tank and fed to the combustion would surely help getting performance but easy for the FiA to detect and plain cheating.

My guess is they somehow managed to gain performance by getting higher flow then necessary in the braking zones, somehow have it stored in high pressure area just before the injectors. In the acceleration phase use it as an extra boost. The only thing that makes this theory fragil is that the FiA should be able to see that because the actual flow measured by the flowmeter doesn’t correspond with the sum of the flow through the injectors in these phases.
I know EGR is not allowed, but any other way to 're use' a mix with un-burned value left in it?
How much "unburned value" do you think there might be in an F1 exhaust? Don't forget they are operating ultra-lean and have the highest thermal efficiency of any ICE. Then you have to consider what fraction of that exhaust could be recycled through the combustion process.
je suis charlie

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Big Tea
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:17 pm
hape wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:54 pm

I would guess hydrogen out of a chemical reaction or pressurized in a tank and fed to the combustion would surely help getting performance but easy for the FiA to detect and plain cheating.

My guess is they somehow managed to gain performance by getting higher flow then necessary in the braking zones, somehow have it stored in high pressure area just before the injectors. In the acceleration phase use it as an extra boost. The only thing that makes this theory fragil is that the FiA should be able to see that because the actual flow measured by the flowmeter doesn’t correspond with the sum of the flow through the injectors in these phases.
I know EGR is not allowed, but any other way to 're use' a mix with un-burned value left in it?
How much "unburned value" do you think there might be in an F1 exhaust? Don't forget they are operating ultra-lean and have the highest thermal efficiency of any ICE. Then you have to consider what fraction of that exhaust could be recycled through the combustion process.
Normally yes, but I was considering a way to 'pre charge' it, artificially rich so it can be used at a point where more than the limited flow can be burned. As I said, I know it is a stupid idea as there is no way to store it even for seconds.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Ah OK.
je suis charlie

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Well they can and they do actually.
At part load demand where less than 100 kg/h is required they can burn the excess in the combustion chamber and harvest it with the K or have a retarded spark and allow some of it to burn in the exhaust where it can be harvested by the H.
nah pop no style

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 pm
.... How much "unburned value" do you think there might be in an F1 exhaust? Don't forget they are operating ultra-lean and have the highest thermal efficiency of any ICE. Then you have to consider what fraction of that exhaust could be recycled through the combustion process.
presumably ...
the unburned value is c.5% - ie combustion efficiency is c.95%
(a little of the 5% being MGUH-recovered as there's steady burn conditions upstream of the turbine)

the highest (B)TE will comes this way - not from further leaning
further leaning would lose more in depressed CE than it would gain in reduced heat dump to coolant and exhaust

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:59 pm
Well they can and they do actually.
At part load demand where less than 100 kg/h is required they can burn the excess in the combustion chamber and harvest it with the K or have a retarded spark and allow some of it to burn in the exhaust where it can be harvested by the H.
I can't find it now, but wasn't there a TD which focused on fuel flow vs. torque demand or pedal position?? If I remember that correctly, then how much does that TD not all this H recovery? When I (think I read) that TD, I saw that as effectively neutering the approach, but their may still be scope to exploit within the rules.
Last edited by subcritical71 on Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mudflap
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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You are right, I do recall seeing that somewhere, I think it was new for the current season.
I wonder if they have just reduced the overhead or eliminated it completely ?
nah pop no style