Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems

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The are some fundamental problems to hydraulic KERS. One is the relatively low efficiency of rotary pumps and motors. Second is the high weight of incompressible fluids. And third is the big space requirement of hydraulic accumulators and their akward form factor. All of this is less relvant when you come to heavy commercial vehicles but it seriously impacts on road cars and racing cars. So I do not see this resolved in a short period of time. We discussed this when Ciro presented the hydristor. I hav not heard about progress of this device for the last year.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
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Re: Regenerative systems

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WhiteBlue wrote:The are some fundamental problems to hydraulic KERS. One is the relatively low efficiency of rotary pumps and motors. Second is the high weight of incompressible fluids. And third is the big space requirement of hydraulic accumulators and their akward form factor. All of this is less relvant when you come to heavy commercial vehicles but it seriously impacts on road cars and racing cars. So I do not see this resolved in a short period of time. We discussed this when Ciro presented the hydristor. I hav not heard about progress of this device for the last year.
Still, a very good vid!

Chris

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mx_tifoso
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. for dummies
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-A6ZcenX7s[/youtube]

Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. 2
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLdepyyu ... re=related[/youtube]

Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. 3
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU6TlHqM ... re=related[/youtube]
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Thanks, nice videos :)
"We will have to wait and see".

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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Sam Michael recently said that Williams will release the energy stored in its flywheel KERS into the drivetrain "at the push of a button through an electro-engine".

What is an electro-engine. Is this an electric motor?
Williams and proud of it.

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WhiteBlue
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Yes Iread it on AMuS http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/spor ... _13987.hbs . He speaks of an electric motor. It surprises me that they use an electric motor but the reason may be the open architecture for 4W-KERS. The system is quite heavy at 40 kg as I suspected. Williams are not sure if they will race it next year unless they can drop some weight.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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mx_tifoso
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From 'autosport', for the time being anyways,

They have reported that due to characteristics of the new slick tyres, the cars will have to feature front end weight bias. And with KERS possibly weighing up to 60kg's, the positive effect of the new device could be negated, or simply cancelled out, since it adds so much mass to the rear end. But of course teams could simply design their chassis and suspension to meet their weight distribution needs. So we'll see when the teams start running 2009 packages in a few weeks how they fare and what they have done as far as that dilemma goes.

Thus not only the design of the KERS will effect the performance of the car, but it's effect coupled to the tyre characteristics and needs.

Ross Brawn commenting on KERS in general;
It [KERS] can be quite a strategic advantage. There are a number of tracks when the gain at the start could be two or three car lengths between a car with KERS and a car without KERS.

Some tracks will provide no benefit because they don't have long enough straights before the first corner, but there are a number of tracks where KERS will be very relevant for the start, and could mean two or three car places."
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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Just wondering, does anyone know if a Kers (flywheel type) could double as the alternator? perhaps reversed compared to conventional designs due to the difficulties of a copper wound armature rotating at 60,000rpm. i.e. with windings in the KERS casing and a magnetised coating deposited electrolytically or possible plasma sprayed on the exterior of the flywheel (easier to balance by grinding etc and less likely to disintegrate). I am asuming that higher speed 60,000rpm available (at least some of the time) would require less hardware i.e. magnets and windings to generate the same power and overall would save more than it looses in sapping power from the Kers system by doing away with the weight of a seperate alternator???

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WhiteBlue
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http://www.williamshybridpower.com/technology/

you will find the basics of the technology you are looking for.
The MLC technology .... incorporates the permanent magnets of the integral motor/generator into the composite structure of the flywheel itself by mixing magnetic powder into the resin matrix.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Mmm, That has me thinking.

I was thinking of the same thing but mechanically driven with the capability to bleed off electrical power for running the car etc.

Did they ever get around the problem of sealing the bearings against the vacuum in the flywheel casing on the Flybrid/torotrak mechanically driven flywheel? It was pretty close to the anouncement of KERS being allowed and it wasn't sussed I didn't think...according to some magazine articles and stuff. Not an overnight fix that one I wouldn't have thought.

Does this mean both types of Kers systems now being planned will receive and output electrical energy, the principal difference being the Williams style system uses flywheel storage and the others use batteries/capacitors? If so I wonder how are they gathering this electrical energy? Drawing heavily on the alternator during braking?

I suppose an alternator would be rotating at a lower speed getting around the vacuum/bearing seal issue, making it kind of like an electrical CVT eh!

and then to release this power back into the drivetrain???
Are they going to feed power back into a dual purpose alternator/motor like they used to use on old road cars to do the starting AND charging?
Please someone help me out as this is all making me feel very thick and I'm sure the answer is right in front of me...

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safeaschuck
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O.K. so I read about 10 pages and watched the videos above now. They seem to use a combined alternator/motor unit to collect and output knetic energy on the elctrical systems so it MUST be bye-bye alternator then...?

According to the flybrid website they solved the vacuum sealed high speed bearing problem as long as 18 months ago, my apologies for doubting them, my info was to say the least, out of date.

And the jigsaw peices (mainly whiteblue's link [above] and a mention of an 'electromotor' [wooo] elsewhere) seem to suggest there is no mechanical linkage between engine and flywheel on the Williams flywheel system, meaning Honda would be the only ones planning to use the Flybrid system? or would have been...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I don't know what Brawn is planning in terms of KERS but to me it looks like all teams will have water cooled motor/generators which are controlled by water cooled electronic inverters. Storage is the main difference. Williuams use Flywheels with integral motor Generator capability in the wheel. The other teams probably use chemical batteries of some kind (lithium/Ion). I havn't heard of a team using supercaps. The Torotrac solution seems to be out of the race, at least I havn't seen any team, mention it.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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safeaschuck
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O.K. More research, apologies if people have seen this before.

Magneti Marelli has revealed it is to join Flybrid, Williams, Zytek and Bosch in offering an off the shelf solution for Formula 1. Its KERS is capable of a maximum energy storage of 400Kj per lap with a maximum 60Kw power boost as per the regulations. The system itself is fairly conventional, using a single liquid cooled brushless direct current motor generator unit (MGU), which operates at around 120 degrees C. Also included in the system is an in house designed KERS Control Unit (KCU) with a similar temperature capability. The battery pack is an ousourced part due to the complex chemistry involved in its development.
It was developed with a team (many suspect Ferrari) and is fully integrated with that operations powertain and is not an optional extra like some other systems.


Image

It appers you are bang on white blue, those certainly look like connectors for coolant. Do you think there's some planetary reduction box in that billet nosecone? Looks like it's rigged to go onto the crank although it's going to need more support than that eh?...

I can only hope that me muddling through under the scrupulous eyes of those that already know may provide a little information to those others who haven't looked this far into it yet:)

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Dur, I am having a major head slapping moment, it's all out there, sorry to have wasted valuable space asking stupid questions.

Here is an excellent article about the Bosch Kers system which allows use with batteries or flywheels (up to 4 flywheels to counteract the gyroscopic effect).

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... dular.html

I would love to have posted some of the pictures up here but the fine magazine that it seems sponsers this site deserves many extra hits on their website for explaining it to me, not to mention copyright issues, which I forgot about on my last post, sorry, sorry, sorry. eek.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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From the official F1 site
Playing catch-up on KERS costing Ferrari
Ferrari have admitted that they are still behind schedule on development of their KERS system for 2009 - and that the costs have exceeded expectations. They are currently evaluating cars both with and without the system.

KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems), optional for next season, harness waste energy generated by the car under braking and convert it into additional power which can be accessed by the driver via a ‘boost button’.

"It's a great challenge," Ferrari’s technical director Aldo Costa, engine and electronics director Gilles Simon and planner Nikolas Tombazis told reporters at Maranello. "As far as the engine and the electronics are concerned costs went down, but with the KERS we spent much more than we had planned.

"We're working a lot on the energy recovery system. We're a bit behind on our schedule, but our goal is to be ready with a working KERS for the first race, which will be held in Australia. Meanwhile we're also appraising the car without KERS."

Ferrari are due to complete their 2008 testing programme in Portugal on Wednesday.
It sounds bad for Ferrari. Remenber that there are only four tests in 2009 until the first race.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)