2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[DiogoBrand]

Max is stupid enough to do the move. He knows that Lewis will not back off. His fault.

Do you realize that by your twisted logic Max is actually innocent of every incident he ever caused? (And there were a lot)
"It's the other drivers' fault because he knows Max won't give him any space."

[Just_a_fan]

Similar situation to Max and Lewis happened on the first lap, between Leclerc and Giovinazzi. Gio was behind and Leclerc was ahead. See how that transpired, if done well. Both came out of Turn 2 without contact.

https://i.ibb.co/CVbKstf/italia-1.png

https://i.ibb.co/nPYFstn/italia-2.png

Interesting that you point that out. Here is what happened:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -44-16.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -18-15.jpg

Gio was pushed out and ended up going on to the sausage kerb. But still avoided hitting Leclerc. How come he didn't get fired up and over on to Leclerc? Perhaps the speeds were lower, for example, as it was the first corner of the first lap and the bunching up naturally causes lower speeds.

So it wasn't "done well" if by that you mean it was done differently. It was lucky not to be a copy of the later crash, quite simply.

On the contrary, 1st lap is where they dump all their battery at the start to stretch the legs. So, if anything, they are probably faster into that corner. Lewis could have given room and avoided the crash like it was with Leclerc and Gio, who "did very well". He chose not to. Quite simple.

Look where Leclerc is. He hasn't left any room at all - he's further to the left than Hamilton was. He's driven Gio off the track.

So your attempt to say Leclerc did a better job of giving room is incorrect.

[dans79]

Similar situation to Max and Lewis happened on the first lap, between Leclerc and Giovinazzi. Gio was behind and Leclerc was ahead. See how that transpired, if done well. Both came out of Turn 2 without contact.

https://i.ibb.co/CVbKstf/italia-1.png

https://i.ibb.co/nPYFstn/italia-2.png

Interesting that you point that out. Here is what happened:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -44-16.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -18-15.jpg

Gio was pushed out and ended up going on to the sausage kerb. But still avoided hitting Leclerc. How come he didn't get fired up and over on to Leclerc? Perhaps the speeds were lower, for example, as it was the first corner of the first lap and the bunching up naturally causes lower speeds.

So it wasn't "done well" if by that you mean it was done differently. It was lucky not to be a copy of the later crash, quite simply.

On the contrary, 1st lap is where they dump all their battery at the start to stretch the legs. So, if anything, they are probably faster into that corner. Lewis could have given room and avoided the crash like it was with Leclerc and Gio, who "did very well". He chose not to. Quite simple.

Umm, this is horribly wrong on several levels.

They are not going to be faster into the first corner off the starting line than when they come out of parabolic already going full tilt!

Also it is against the rules to use the MGUK during the start until the car surpasses 100 Km/h.

So no, they are never going to be faster into turn 1 on the first lap!

[Hoffman900]

Too many keyboard drivers here. Yikes

[DiogoBrand]

Too many keyboard drivers here. Yikes

What do you expect? Lewis and Max to come here and discuss?

[Hoffman900]

Too many keyboard drivers here. Yikes

What do you expect? Lewis and Max to come here and discuss?

I think they care less about this than some here!

So what happened to Alonso in T1 on that lap? He cut the corner and got away with it?

[Juzh]

Was Bottas' drive really anything special though? He started from P19, which became P18 after Tsunoda started from pitlane. Then when GIO went round it became P17. He then overtook some really uncompetitive and slow cars which really didn't stand a chance against him.
The only 2 semi-competitive cars he overtook were both ferraris, but those were very slow on straights and he was on faster tyre.
He was then unable to overtake Perez who didn't have that good pace and only got podium via 5s penalty.
Meh..

By that logic most drivers were mediocre.

Overtaking appeared to be very difficult this weekend.

This probably contributed to the coming together between Verstappen and Hamilton, as both new it might be their only chance to get ahead.

I've checked bottas' race onboard footage and none of the overtakes he did were difficult. His car was just so much faster than others he just flew by all of them and none tried to defend it's position up until ferraris. Trouble for ferrari was their engine/car combo got exposed as complete dud on this track and they were sort of not even in the same league on straights compared to mercedes. Bottas even got told by his engineer he will have a big advantage over them and it showed. He actually overtook both without DRS (image that) and then overtook leclerc once again with DRS on the next lap after leclerc retook his position with cutting T1-2 chicane.

Bottas basically hit brick wall against perez despite being in a faster car on faster tyre.

[taperoo2k]

Stewards made their ruling, Horner and Marko seemed to accept without protest which is really unusual for them. Dead horse is dead. Discussion has served it's purpose. No one is changing their minds. Let's move on.

They were never going to argue that one, due to the nature of the crash i.e. tyre near Lewis's head area. I'd say Max is lucky he only got a 3 place grid drip. It's a 3 place grid drop, not a race ban for those not happy with the stewards decision. If Max and Lewis continue as is, there will be a more serious accident. The stewards I think had little choice but to give Max a slap across the wrists. If he learns from it or not ? Who knows. He's yet to learn the skill of knowing when it's better to back off, to fight another day.

I'm a McLaren fan at heart, so I have no real preference for who wins the drivers title between Lewis and Max. I just worry the aggression is going to boil over into something that should and must be avoided. I will never forget the weekend when Ratzenberger and Senna died, It's seared into my memory. It wasn't that long ago that we lost Jules Bianchi and almost lost Grosjean. F1 is safer than ever, but the risk remains. Which is why my heart was in my mouth as soon as I saw Max's car going over the top of Lewis's car.

[Tubas]

For all the pedantry of who did what to who, if these two don't sort themselves out, someone is going to get killed.

[DiogoBrand]

Too many keyboard drivers here. Yikes

What do you expect? Lewis and Max to come here and discuss?

I think they care less about this than some here!

So what happened to Alonso in T1 on that lap? He cut the corner and got away with it?

You're right, but if people didn't care about things that don't concern them this forum wouldn't exist.
What's the point of us armchair warriors discussing suspension and wings of Formula One cars anyway?

[void]

The point is that you are implying that the contact is always Max' fault, by staying that 'whenever max and lewis come together it's because Max can't close race'. It isn't. And its not just you doing this, it's many - so my comment was more meant as a general statement.

IMO is always Max fault, not by being dangerous driver, but for not being rational driver. On British GP if he were more rational, he should let Lewis pass, on Italian GP is the same thing. Max is calling "all in" in every GP and it can cost him the championship.

[carisi2k]

I don't understand the official reasoning for a penalty by the FIA. "In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late"
But why was it too late? Is there a rule which says that? When they reached the apex Max was clearly halfway alongside, at the exit from the apex Max was more than halfway past the defender at the apex. So why didn't Lewis gave more space?

https://i.imgur.com/e0lUrdf.jpeg

In v8 supercars land this image shows that Max would be considered past the C-pillar and Hamilton would need to provide space to Max or be penalised. At this point both cars are under control and able to make the next corner (unlike Hamilton at Silverstone). Lewis does move over on Max into the left hand corner which squeezes Max out and on to the sausage kerb. Also note that Max has warmer tyres and Lewis has cold tyres.

My belief is that this should just be seen as a racing incident with neither party primarily to blame. The circuit design should be blamed and that those sausage kerbs be removed so we don't see another accident like this or Alex Peroni's F3 crash in 2019. Bring back gravel.

The comparison to Silverstone is futile and incorrect because the corners are completely different. That turn is similar to Turn 8 at the Clipsal 500 in Adelaide where whomever is in front in to the braking zone has the corner so we don't see such an incident as what happened to Max at 51g's.

[carisi2k]

The point is that you are implying that the contact is always Max' fault, by staying that 'whenever max and lewis come together it's because Max can't close race'. It isn't. And its not just you doing this, it's many - so my comment was more meant as a general statement.

IMO is always Max fault, not by being dangerous driver, but for not being rational driver. On British GP if he were more rational, he should let Lewis pass, on Italian GP is the same thing. Max is calling "all in" in every GP and it can cost him the championship.

Oh boy does somebody have this wrong. They are in a close race for the championship. You don't win championships this close by finishing behind your opponent. That exact same argument can be used for Lewis and his championship chase as well. These accidents can cost him just as much as Max and so your argument can apply to Lewis more then Max especially as Lewis has more experience in this regard.

Anyway I am on cloud nine because with those 2 taking each other out my guy Daniel won the race and boy am I happy.

[cheeRS]

I don't understand the official reasoning for a penalty by the FIA. "In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late"
But why was it too late? Is there a rule which says that? When they reached the apex Max was clearly halfway alongside, at the exit from the apex Max was more than halfway past the defender at the apex. So why didn't Lewis gave more space?

https://i.imgur.com/e0lUrdf.jpeg

In v8 supercars land this image shows that Max would be considered past the C-pillar and Hamilton would need to provide space to Max or be penalised. At this point both cars are under control and able to make the next corner (unlike Hamilton at Silverstone). Lewis does move over on Max into the left hand corner which squeezes Max out and on to the sausage kerb. Also note that Max has warmer tyres and Lewis has cold tyres.

My belief is that this should just be seen as a racing incident with neither party primarily to blame. The circuit design should be blamed and that those sausage kerbs be removed so we don't see another accident like this or Alex Peroni's F3 crash in 2019. Bring back gravel.

The comparison to Silverstone is futile and incorrect because the corners are completely different. That turn is similar to Turn 8 at the Clipsal 500 in Adelaide where whomever is in front in to the braking zone has the corner so we don't see such an incident as what happened to Max at 51g's.

This isn't V8 Supercars and is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Save it for another forum.

[cheeRS]

The point is that you are implying that the contact is always Max' fault, by staying that 'whenever max and lewis come together it's because Max can't close race'. It isn't. And its not just you doing this, it's many - so my comment was more meant as a general statement.

IMO is always Max fault, not by being dangerous driver, but for not being rational driver. On British GP if he were more rational, he should let Lewis pass, on Italian GP is the same thing. Max is calling "all in" in every GP and it can cost him the championship.

Oh boy does somebody have this wrong. They are in a close race for the championship. You don't win championships this close by finishing behind your opponent. That exact same argument can be used for Lewis and his championship chase as well. These accidents can cost him just as much as Max and so your argument can apply to Lewis more then Max especially as Lewis has more experience in this regard.

Anyway I am on cloud nine because with those 2 taking each other out my guy Daniel won the race and boy am I happy.

That somebody is you. To win an F1 race sometimes you have to go all in. To win an F1 championship, drivers quickly learn that they have to pick their battles and take a loss when necessary. Despite Horner and co. always talking about how mature Max is, he thus far hasn't learned how to not go all in. He thinks every corner is his and every overtake attempt on him should be blocked somehow. Beyond that he is delusional. Both in Silverstone and Monza, prior to those incidents, he ran Hamilton wide. In those prior incidents Hamilton had the wisdom to back off a bit. Ironically, Max seems to forget all the times that he doesn't leave other drivers space. I guarantee that if the Monza/Silverstone situations were Hamilton vs any other reputable driver on the grid (Alonso, Vettel, Sainz, Ric, Lando, Kimi, Schumi) there wouldn't be a crash. Yet, if it was Verstappen v any of those drivers fighting for the WDC like LH, there'd probably be a similar incident.

If Max doesn't win the WDC this year despite having the best car, it'll be because of his over aggressive, all-in, never back down mentality costing him the needed points. He was quite fortunate that he landed on top of Hamilton's car.. if he had just bounced off into the gravel there Hamilton would be leading this WDC by a healthy margin, just like after Max threw away 25+ points in Silverstone.

If anything the most possible importance and weight was given to the stewards' decision. They know that their decision could alter the WDC results and that a penalty would thus be extremely harsh given the impact. Yet, they still gave Max a penalty. Despite what all of us keyboard warriors type, they still give Max a penalty. That is the final word.