2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower
JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:51 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:47 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:38 pm


What struggles? he's never struggled.
According to you. As far as I know, he was up until recently still struggling with brake and tire feel. He's doing a good job of driving around those issues, but not knowing or being used to what a car is doing is definitely a struggle(which partially led to him being in the wall in Hungary/Zand/Monza and also his tire deg issues at various races).

Call it that if you want to, but nothing outside of your opinion on paper or in the minds of people in the paddock, think he is struggling. its called adapting, and that's the challenge. But he hasn't "struggled" to overcome It and put in results has he? Again, theres no night and day difference from the early phase of the season and to now. hence, not a struggle.
You're arguing semantics at this point. We'll agree to disagree.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:05 pm
At the Turkish Grand Prix, Sainz used a large rear wing, Charles had a "spoon" version. As Leclerc said "Even when the rear feels a bit unstable, I actually like that, I can make the car turn the way I want it to."
Schumacher once said that although he does not like the unstable rear, he can overcome it. If driver A and B can take turns at the same speed, and driver A has a smaller rear wing due to driving style, would it be more useful to the team because of the higher possible straight line speed?
I would've thought soo.. don't quote me on this but the way I understand it, if you're matching the cornering speed close enough on merit of your own ability to control the car without extra help, then you're exploiting more pace out of the car, theres a higher ceiling of performance to attack?

It seems to me that driving a pointy car with a less stable rear is more dynamic and allows you to dance with a limit that you just can't with a car that has more understeer / stable rear?

must be like two people finding lap times on bicycles; one with training stabiliser wheels on the rear and one without. Thats probably why, like MB said, the best drivers seem to have the ability to dance with cars on the nose.

Thats why I said in another thread, I think if 2021 Leclerc was racing the Ferraris between 2015-2018, the 2017-2018 Ferrari would be more pointy because they would've developed a car around driver who can drive that way. Probably would've suited Ferrari's aero designers better too. Seb isn't a good fit for that, and probably wanted a Red Bull in Ferrari colours, but they didn't have a Newey. I think someone Like Charles could've pushed MCS and Hamilton a lot harder those 2 years for the title, maybe even won.

The impression I had of Leclerc vs Vettel in 2019-2020 was the 2019 car was built around Vettel as it should be, but since Leclerc could beat Vettel in his own car, it only makes sense for the team to then build it towards Leclerc's liking to make it go faster. I think that's what happened and why Vettel suddenly fell off in 2020 because he can't drive that type of car.

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codetower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:23 pm
Gillian wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:03 pm
You're just arguing semantics now I think. I agree he did not struggle, adapting is a better word. I think JPower is saying the same thing. And that's why I rate Sainz a little higher, eventhough he is behind Leclerc in points. Its too easy to just look at points as a singular measurement.
Right. but the heart of the disagreement originally was that Sainz has a lot more head room to improve and was struggling. My position was opposite, I think he adapted well and quickly, and that there isn't much more left. Now, if he managed to take the lead driver status and the team build the car very much to what Sainz wants, then that's a different conversation.

I would see his head room being bigger to find more pace out of himself. But at the moment he shares the team with another driver who is as good as Sainz on average, but a fair bit better on his best days. So they have to share a car. I think he will improve by end of next year but I honestly don't think hes far off his potential at the moment. Next year will be muddled anyway because its a reset as mentioned before so who knows. He might shine not only against Leclerc but others in the grid because he seems pretty adaptable.
I think Sainz is what he is. He's a very good driver who can score some really good points for the team. Today I think he's more consistent than Charles. Maybe it's his experience, maybe it's just his driving style. But in 7 years he's yet to win a race, and yet to even score a pole. This is why I cant say he's better than Charles. Carlos will usually be between 4 and 8... sometimes getting that podium, but I still need to see him "surprise" people.

The highs with Leclerc are definitely going to be higher than Carlos', but then again his lows can also be lower. We'll see charles get an occasional pole, and even get a high podium... but then we'll also see him land outside the top 10. Maybe he pushes the car too much, maybe he takes a risk that doesn't pay off. But he's still young, and I think still has lots of room to improve.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:19 pm
jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:05 pm
At the Turkish Grand Prix, Sainz used a large rear wing, Charles had a "spoon" version. As Leclerc said "Even when the rear feels a bit unstable, I actually like that, I can make the car turn the way I want it to."
Schumacher once said that although he does not like the unstable rear, he can overcome it. If driver A and B can take turns at the same speed, and driver A has a smaller rear wing due to driving style, would it be more useful to the team because of the higher possible straight line speed?
I would've thought soo.. don't quote me on this but the way I understand it, if you're matching the cornering speed close enough on merit of your own ability to control the car without extra help, then you're exploiting more pace out of the car, theres a higher ceiling of performance to attack?

It seems to me that driving a pointy car with a less stable rear is more dynamic and allows you to dance with a limit that you just can't with a car that has more understeer / stable rear?

must be like two people finding lap times on bicycles; one with training stabiliser wheels on the rear and one without. Thats probably why, like MB said, the best drivers seem to have the ability to dance with cars on the nose.

Thats why I said in another thread, I think if 2021 Leclerc was racing the Ferraris between 2015-2018, the 2017-2018 Ferrari would be more pointy because they would've developed a car around driver who can drive that way. Probably would've suited Ferrari's aero designers better too. Seb isn't a good fit for that, and probably wanted a Red Bull in Ferrari colours, but they didn't have a Newey. I think someone Like Charles could've pushed MCS and Hamilton a lot harder those 2 years for the title, maybe even won.

The impression I had of Leclerc vs Vettel in 2019-2020 was the 2019 car was built around Vettel as it should be, but since Leclerc could beat Vettel in his own car, it only makes sense for the team to then build it towards Leclerc's liking to make it go faster. I think that's what happened and why Vettel suddenly fell off in 2020 because he can't drive that type of car.
It would be interesting to see Max and Charles in Ferrari cars if they have the same style :D

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:53 am
I’m not knocking Sainz, I think he’s a top driver. Do I think he is in the very elite top? Not quite, but he’s not far off. The only reason I say this is because he hasn’t outshined team mates and stamped his authority on them consistently enough.
Who has outshined Hulkemberg, Verstappen or Lecrerc?

Hulkemberg has always been considered a very good driver, Sainz did beat him in one of the two seasons.

Verstappen has never been beaten by a teammate

Same for Lecrerc, even when he´s been the teammate of a 4 times WDC for two seasons.

Norris is also considered one of the big names for the future and Sainz did beat him the two seasons they were teammates.

Then Kvyat is the only Sainz teammate who has never been considered a big name or at least a very good driver. Carlos scored almost double his points at STR (46 vs 25)


Don´t get me wrong, I´ve never considered Sainz as a big name for the future, but his record is quite remarkable considering the teams and teammates in his career. I´d rate him similar to Rosberg or even higher.


About the mention to not scoring a victory yet while Lecrerc did several in his career... this season car is the best car Sainz has ever driven. How many victories did Lecrerc score with this car? None. Podiums? One for Lecrerc, three for Sainz

I still rate Lecrerc higher tough, but Carlos is proving to be a very tough contender even for a top driver like Charles

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:59 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:53 am
I’m not knocking Sainz, I think he’s a top driver. Do I think he is in the very elite top? Not quite, but he’s not far off. The only reason I say this is because he hasn’t outshined team mates and stamped his authority on them consistently enough.
Who has outshined Hulkemberg, Verstappen or Lecrerc?

Hulkemberg has always been considered a very good driver, Sainz did beat him in one of the two seasons.

Verstappen has never been beaten by a teammate

Same for Lecrerc, even when he´s been the teammate of a 4 times WDC for two seasons.

Norris is also considered one of the big names for the future and Sainz did beat him the two seasons they were teammates.

Then Kvyat is the only Sainz teammate who has never been considered a big name or at least a very good driver. Carlos scored almost double his points at STR (46 vs 25)


Don´t get me wrong, I´ve never considered Sainz as a big name for the future, but his record is quite remarkable considering the teams and teammates in his career. I´d rate him similar to Rosberg or even higher.


About the mention to not scoring a victory yet while Lecrerc did several in his career... this season car is the best car Sainz has ever driven. How many victories did Lecrerc score with this car? None. Podiums? One for Lecrerc, three for Sainz

I still rate Lecrerc higher tough, but Carlos is proving to be a very tough contender even for a top driver like Charles

It doesn't matter who's outshined the drivers who outshined him, though does it? I really don't see the point of this because you've basically come full circle by the end of your post – you agree Leclerc is higher, you agree with exactly what I said about him being in the same bracket as Rosberg, a very good driver at the least. So what's the point? Hulkenburg was also a very good driver and that's the calibre Sainz seems to slot into. Not quite Danny Ric/Hamilton/Verstappen/Leclerc etc

He did beat Norris in his first two seasons but that's the key – it was his first two seasons and Carlos was lead driver of the team a little bit more. And you say Max never was beaten by a team mate? he never beat Ricciardo until Ricciardo left RB, had engines failing all over the place, and had no backing or priority from the team any longer.

Yes Sainz has more podiums but you gloss over the fact that 2 of them were inherited from Leclerc not being a factor in those races; Hungary (taken out) and Monaco. Take that into a account and very easily it looks like 3 podiums to 1.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:32 pm

It doesn't matter who's outshined the drivers who outshined him, though does it? I really don't see the point of this because you've basically come full circle by the end of your post – you agree Leclerc is higher, you agree with exactly what I said about him being in the same bracket as Rosberg, a very good driver at the least. So what's the point?
Sharing opinions. No need to discuss even if it´s a discussion forum :P

AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:32 pm
Yes Sainz has more podiums but you gloss over the fact that 2 of them were inherited from Leclerc not being a factor in those races; Hungary (taken out) and Monaco. Take that into a account and very easily it looks like 3 podiums to 1.
No, even in that "what if" scenario with no problems for Lecrerc, it would be 3-2 as Sainz was 2nd in Monaco, with Charles it would be 3rd yet :mrgreen:

Didn´t bother to check if Sainz missed some podium for external reasons btw, I hate those "what if" discussions, they´re endless

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:44 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:32 pm

It doesn't matter who's outshined the drivers who outshined him, though does it? I really don't see the point of this because you've basically come full circle by the end of your post – you agree Leclerc is higher, you agree with exactly what I said about him being in the same bracket as Rosberg, a very good driver at the least. So what's the point?
Sharing opinions. No need to discuss even if it´s a discussion forum :P

AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:32 pm
Yes Sainz has more podiums but you gloss over the fact that 2 of them were inherited from Leclerc not being a factor in those races; Hungary (taken out) and Monaco. Take that into a account and very easily it looks like 3 podiums to 1.
No, even in that "what if" scenario with no problems for Lecrerc, it would be 3-2 as Sainz was 2nd in Monaco, with Charles it would be 3rd yet :mrgreen:

Didn´t bother to check if Sainz missed some podium for external reasons btw, I hate those "what if" discussions, they´re endless
Okay 3-2 there, You got me.. :lol:

I don't like them that much but if people are going to use standings tables, and head 2 heads, then you might as well layer over the context of the results to truly depict a genuine picture.

Fernando Alonso's seasons have sometimes been depicted as greater than they actually were in reality because he enjoyed an extreme disparity between himself and other drivers in car reliability failures in some seasons.

Otherwise referencing standings and head 2 heads can warp opinions about which driver is better. Theres a lot more to being a better driver than the results that you get – some results come your way without being on merit of you doing a better job than others, theres too many variables. This sport is not tennis; when you look at tennis head 2 heads its a lot more straight forward than Formula 1 in that its depicting something much more genuine and representative between the competitors; the results speak very directly for themselves, and in Formula 1 they very much don't :lol:

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codetower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:59 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:53 am
I’m not knocking Sainz, I think he’s a top driver. Do I think he is in the very elite top? Not quite, but he’s not far off. The only reason I say this is because he hasn’t outshined team mates and stamped his authority on them consistently enough.
Who has outshined Hulkemberg, Verstappen or Lecrerc?

Hulkemberg has always been considered a very good driver, Sainz did beat him in one of the two seasons.

Verstappen has never been beaten by a teammate

Same for Lecrerc, even when he´s been the teammate of a 4 times WDC for two seasons.

Norris is also considered one of the big names for the future and Sainz did beat him the two seasons they were teammates.

Then Kvyat is the only Sainz teammate who has never been considered a big name or at least a very good driver. Carlos scored almost double his points at STR (46 vs 25)

Don´t get me wrong, I´ve never considered Sainz as a big name for the future, but his record is quite remarkable considering the teams and teammates in his career. I´d rate him similar to Rosberg or even higher.

About the mention to not scoring a victory yet while Lecrerc did several in his career... this season car is the best car Sainz has ever driven. How many victories did Lecrerc score with this car? None. Podiums? One for Lecrerc, three for Sainz

I still rate Lecrerc higher tough, but Carlos is proving to be a very tough contender even for a top driver like Charles
Fair points, I do agree with most of this. And yes, Sainz does have more podiums this year, and neither have a win this year. But I still think there is something there that keeps me from rating Sainz higher than Leclerc. I want to see him do something he isn't supposed to do. Leclerc is not "supposed" to beat a 4 time champ. He's not Supposed to lock up two pole positions this year ahead of Max and Lewis. He's not supposed to lead Silverstone in that Ferrari up until the last 3 laps. I feel that "Wow" moment from Carlos is what's missing for me.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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codetower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:59 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:59 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:53 am
I’m not knocking Sainz, I think he’s a top driver. Do I think he is in the very elite top? Not quite, but he’s not far off. The only reason I say this is because he hasn’t outshined team mates and stamped his authority on them consistently enough.
Who has outshined Hulkemberg, Verstappen or Lecrerc?

Hulkemberg has always been considered a very good driver, Sainz did beat him in one of the two seasons.

Verstappen has never been beaten by a teammate

Same for Lecrerc, even when he´s been the teammate of a 4 times WDC for two seasons.

Norris is also considered one of the big names for the future and Sainz did beat him the two seasons they were teammates.

Then Kvyat is the only Sainz teammate who has never been considered a big name or at least a very good driver. Carlos scored almost double his points at STR (46 vs 25)

Don´t get me wrong, I´ve never considered Sainz as a big name for the future, but his record is quite remarkable considering the teams and teammates in his career. I´d rate him similar to Rosberg or even higher.

About the mention to not scoring a victory yet while Lecrerc did several in his career... this season car is the best car Sainz has ever driven. How many victories did Lecrerc score with this car? None. Podiums? One for Lecrerc, three for Sainz

I still rate Lecrerc higher tough, but Carlos is proving to be a very tough contender even for a top driver like Charles
Fair points, I do agree with most of this. And yes, Sainz does have more podiums this year, and neither have a win this year. But I still think there is something there that keeps me from rating Sainz higher than Leclerc. I want to see him do something he isn't supposed to do. Leclerc is not "supposed" to beat a 4 time champ. He's not Supposed to lock up two pole positions this year ahead of Max and Lewis. He's not supposed to lead Silverstone in that Ferrari up until the last 3 laps. I feel that "Wow" moment from Carlos is what's missing for me.
Yup. the word you're looking for is sensational. He hasn't done anything like that yet.

Leclerc toppling and overthrowing Vettel out of Ferrari – Sensational
Max beating Ricciardo in his first GP for Red Bull and becoming youngest ever GP winner in doing so – Sensational
Daniel beating defending champion Vettel in first and only season together – Sensational
Seb and RB taking F1 by storm with 4 back to back titles – Sensational
Ross Brawn's team winning the titles in 2009 as underdogs – Sensational
Lewis beating defending lineal champion Alonso over a full campaign as a rookie in the same team and almost taking the title in doing so – Sensational

=D>

next year we are going to see something sensational. I doubt it will be Sainz.

JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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codetower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:50 pm


I think Sainz is what he is. He's a very good driver who can score some really good points for the team. Today I think he's more consistent than Charles. Maybe it's his experience, maybe it's just his driving style. But in 7 years he's yet to win a race, and yet to even score a pole. This is why I cant say he's better than Charles. Carlos will usually be between 4 and 8... sometimes getting that podium, but I still need to see him "surprise" people.
Which car out of the Toro Rosso's, the RS18, or the MCL34-35 was capable of getting pole let alone winning a race(outside of the freak result at Monza) especially when Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes basically locked out the first 3 rows from 2015-2019?

He hasn't been in a place to reach those highs. If Ferrari grabs P3, Carlos's team will have won top of the midfield for the 4th consecutive year. That's where he's made his name.

Hopefully next year's car will grant him those opportunities but with context, those aren't metrics I'd put Charles over Carlos for.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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I'm a fan of Sainz. I think he will run Charles out of Ferrari. Not by the team, but breaking LeClerc mentally. He is too self flagellating to truly be a top driver.

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codetower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 am
codetower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:50 pm


I think Sainz is what he is. He's a very good driver who can score some really good points for the team. Today I think he's more consistent than Charles. Maybe it's his experience, maybe it's just his driving style. But in 7 years he's yet to win a race, and yet to even score a pole. This is why I cant say he's better than Charles. Carlos will usually be between 4 and 8... sometimes getting that podium, but I still need to see him "surprise" people.
Which car out of the Toro Rosso's, the RS18, or the MCL34-35 was capable of getting pole let alone winning a race(outside of the freak result at Monza) especially when Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes basically locked out the first 3 rows from 2015-2019?

He hasn't been in a place to reach those highs. If Ferrari grabs P3, Carlos's team will have won top of the midfield for the 4th consecutive year. That's where he's made his name.

Hopefully next year's car will grant him those opportunities but with context, those aren't metrics I'd put Charles over Carlos for.
This is what I mean though... he's done what a good driver is supposed to do. He IS very good, just not Elite (yet?). I want to see him do something above what is expected once in a while. Last year Leclerc had no business finishing any races in the top 5 with that SF1000. Lando should not be giving problems to Hamilton in that McLaren. Things like that are what I'm looking for. Not always, but once in a while... stand out from what people expect from you.

And don't get me wrong, I DO think he's verrry talented, just not that upper tier... like you said, top of the midfield.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

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codetower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:26 am
I'm a fan of Sainz. I think he will run Charles out of Ferrari. Not by the team, but breaking LeClerc mentally. He is too self flagellating to truly be a top driver.
Haha. it's called being humble, and owning up to your mistakes. It's something that very few people have these days. It's much easier to lash out and blame everything and everyone around you.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

JPower
JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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codetower wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:46 am
JPower wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 am
codetower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:50 pm


I think Sainz is what he is. He's a very good driver who can score some really good points for the team. Today I think he's more consistent than Charles. Maybe it's his experience, maybe it's just his driving style. But in 7 years he's yet to win a race, and yet to even score a pole. This is why I cant say he's better than Charles. Carlos will usually be between 4 and 8... sometimes getting that podium, but I still need to see him "surprise" people.
Which car out of the Toro Rosso's, the RS18, or the MCL34-35 was capable of getting pole let alone winning a race(outside of the freak result at Monza) especially when Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes basically locked out the first 3 rows from 2015-2019?

He hasn't been in a place to reach those highs. If Ferrari grabs P3, Carlos's team will have won top of the midfield for the 4th consecutive year. That's where he's made his name.

Hopefully next year's car will grant him those opportunities but with context, those aren't metrics I'd put Charles over Carlos for.
This is what I mean though... he's done what a good driver is supposed to do. He IS very good, just not Elite (yet?). I want to see him do something above what is expected once in a while. Last year Leclerc had no business finishing any races in the top 5 with that SF1000. Lando should not be giving problems to Hamilton in that McLaren. Things like that are what I'm looking for. Not always, but once in a while... stand out from what people expect from you.

And don't get me wrong, I DO think he's verrry talented, just not that upper tier... like you said, top of the midfield.
I wouldn't make Lando an example in this context. At all. There's no way you can tell me Carlos couldn't replicate any of his performances in that car given his history with McLaren.

As for doing the unexpected, Carlos put the MCL35 top 3 in qualifying twice in 2020. He put that piece of crap RS18 top 5 in qualifying at Hungary in 2018. I'd even argue that him finishing with 8 top-6 finishes in the MCL34 was not "expected" of that car considering it was at best the 4th quickest car that year.

Hopefully we'll see what happens if Binotto gives him a good car next year. Again, I don't consider his outright pace to be better than Leclerc's, but to say he hasn't done anything "unexpected" is overlooking what he's done thus far. You might forget, Martin Brundle said he should've replaced Kimi as early as 2017. Ferrari doesn't sign average drivers.
Last edited by JPower on Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:00 am, edited 4 times in total.