2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[Nicktec]

Max 5 minutes after FIA meeting

[Laserguru]

Can’t believe it: Mercedes indeed claimed Max damaged the rear wing (gptoday quotes Marco on f1-insider). SUPERMAX it is!

Yup it's so ridiculous it's hilarious.

I realize formula 1 is often referred to as traveling circus, and now they have introduced the clowns. I hope these websites are misinformed but would no longer be surprised if it actually happened.

[f1jcw]

I think fia should investigate whole Mercedes team, all engines even if they are not in pool, cad models and productions. so we will know what they are...

This just shows what this is all about in here, the majority of posters are coming from a stance of a grudge.

[etusch]

I wonder that, is this silverstone update

[MtthsMlw]

Changing parts under parc ferme is a bit different at a sprint weekend, just fyi.
Quote from racefans.net

“At an event where a sprint qualifying session is scheduled, replacement parts that are different in design will be permitted provided that the part is of a specification that has been used previously in a qualifying practice session or a race.”

[adrianjordan]

You are being intentionally obtuse.

How do you find that something was tampered with?

You have an expert come in and give testimony, in your case, an expert on guns

Jesus, seriously, even after explained, you still don't get it.

There would be no expert as the gun would not be allowed to be offered as evidence. It would have to be removed.

It doesn't matter what the tampering, but the simple fact they touched it could have it thrown out.

Only because there is prescendent of experts saying that one person holding a gun can be capable of tampering with it, that is why those cases can be thrown out.

Merc have to prove why something that needs specific tools to set up can be altered by Max in 1 second of touch (if he did touch at all)

You need to read up on the "chain of custody" for evidence in criminal cases. And just in case it's been distorted in a TV Crime show at some point, I mean in real life.

It the chain of custody for a piece of evidence is broken, that evidence becomes inadmissible. It's a binary thing, no way back. Entire murder trials have failed on such technicalities.

[Manoah2u]

Interesting saga this.

First of all, i am suprised that RedBull is able to have evidence that shows a difference of 1 mm, as certain media claim - it is claimed the FIA started the investigation based upon evidence provided by RedBull, specifically from Adrian Newey. I don't know how they gathered this 'evidence' though, and again, i would concider it proposterous to think they're able to spot a 1mm difference visually.

The issue here is that Verstappen touched the rear wing of Hamilton. Is he able to modify the gap from 84 to 85mm? to be fair, i think you can. Some people claim this would be nonsense because supposedly 300+ kph can't but 'supermax' hands does. That is not the issue here. The car has not been tested with 300+ kph, the car is tested standing still, and i would argue it's not unlikely there is room for movement. The measurement of 84mm is measured whilst in parc ferme, standing still. If it indeed is 85mm instead of 84, then we are talking about a 1mm difference.

As another poster has mentioned, apart from the perhaps questionable theory that Max could actually have 'messed' with the wing (totally apart too from being delibarately), the fact remains he HAS touched the evidence. Another member mentioned the example of a gun in court, which is a great example. As somebody who currently is working with things as sensitive as this (in law), even the most tiny procedural deviations WILL - not can, WILL - completely render a case as dismissed, even if you got somebody at point blank exposed. As such, no matter what the FIA now claims, the wing has been potentially tampered with by Verstappen. It has been touched by a RB driver, of the team that made the initial claims. This not only makes it actually suspicious, it also makes the case entirely dismissable.

Max obviously is not in the clear as he has stated he cannot comment on the case.

Let's get 1 thing sorted out first though: i can't imagine RB is purposefully tampering with the opponent's car. However, they have digged themselves into that potential perspective now.
If Max does NOT get any penalty, then that would clear both Max and RB's name. However, it would still remain the fact that he DID touch the car, and that up untill no point there was any question or suspision about it untill after qually, when MAx has touched the car of Lewis. And it's not that Max touched Lewis' wheel or airbox, he touched the rear wing in question.
If Max gets no action, then you can be sure Mercedes/Hamilton won't either.

If Hamilton gets penalized, then Max must too.

Checking Bottas' car supposedly resulted in nothing wrong found. Some claim this means a production error can be excluded, but first of all that's not true. It would actually suggest an accidental error if anything. But apart from that, it would also 'back' any claims by Mercedes that the 1-mm difference is because of Max touching his car: after all, Max did NOT touch Bottas' car.

I don't know how many times Lewis' car has been measured - i would expect that it has been inspected more than once to exclude human error in measuring. However, it still doesn't change 1 fact: Lewis car has been touched.

And again, by the opponent that filed the complaint.

This can only result in 2 outcomes:

1 - no party will get actually penalized, but both will get a warning/reprimand. No SL points either. no effect on the race.
2 - both parties will get penalized. Either a DSQ for Hamilton, or a time penalty based upon theoretical 'advantage'. As for Max, either a grid penalty or a DSQ for potentially delibaretly tampering with the vehicle of Lewis.

As for 1 - good research must be made and a good defense must be made.
As for 2 - rather the same really.

I would think that if the FIA concluded (fair or not) Max delibaretly tampered with the wing, that a decision would have been announced and Max would have stood to the press differently.
As such, i think no action will be taken and it will just be a reprimand.

Also because let's be fair here: Lewis' will NOT be penalized for the Sprint Race. Only for the Main race he could be DSQ'd.
But he got that sprint race grid spot by driving an 'unfair' car.

So either way, there's quite the issue here.

I say: again, no penatlies will be applied and the FIA will claim:

in regards to the 'deviation' in the measurements of the wing of car #44, due to the physical contact made by driver #33, the FIA cannot measure whether the deviation was present before or after driver #33 touching the vehicle and as such there is no undisputable evidence that car #44 had an unfair advantage - no further action

in regards to driver #33 touching and inspecting car #44 the FIA has concluded that driver #33 was not aware of being prohibited to physically touch the opponents vehicle under these conditions and did not delibaretly touch the vehicle - no further action

as following the FIA will likely follow their findings as such:

- Mercedes needs to correct the deviation in the rear wing to the mandations, under the view of FIA supervisors to make sure that car #44 meets the requirements BEFORE the sprint race.
- following the incident with driver #33 touching car #44, the FIA now clarifies the rule that no driver, team member of any kind is allowed to touch any vehicle under parc fermé conditions.

result:

we have a show, nobody gets a penalty, and things are brouht to an acceptable 'end'.
Marko will scream bloody murder as usual, but it means absolutely nothing.

any other outcome i cannot begin to imagine.

[Tizz]

FP2 will start in 20 minutes. It will be interesting to see if everybody got his car back

[Michelangelo]

Is Hamilton allowed to go on track for FP2? During an ongoing investigation and looks like a proved infringement.

[dans79]

No human on earth would be able to do that like that, with one hand, not even a gorilla or any known mammal. So you're claiming that Verstappen is a supernatural being? Is that your evidence to doubt?

Depends what the geometry of the part is, what material it's made from, and how you manipulate it.

For example, take a long, less than 1mm diameter CF, aluminum, or metal rod, and under pure tension you aren't going to break it, even if you hang from it. Apply a bending force though and you will distort or break it.

[Ryar]

Yup it's so ridiculous it's hilarious.

It's like Mercedes saying, FIA are dumb idiots who can't think through what we are saying. It's actually, disrespecting the collective wisdom of FIA, more specifically of someone lik Jo Bauer, who has seen these stunts for ages now. I would be shocked if FIA buys that. The more apt decision would be to disqualify Lewis and reprimand Max, as there is no precedent of a penalty for a driver in such situation, despite Vettel having done that multiple times, without any particular issue. Anything else would firm the suggested reputation of FIA as a bunch driven by Mercedes.

You need to grow up a bit with the FIA driven by Mercedes, especially when you show yourself to be very biased.

viewtopic.php?p=1008240#p1008240

Attack the post, not the poster.
Following that easy rule makes everything so much enjoyable for everyone.
We all come here to talk about cars, and F1 and drivers and teams.
Not to talk about what poster A thinks that poster B thinks about what moderator C did to a post from user D about user E.
Anything falling in the last category might be subject to deletion without explanation, and without consistency: treated as background noise: something to be cleaned, but not to obsess about cleaning perfectly.

Attack the post, not the poster.

[Manoah2u]

Jesus, seriously, even after explained, you still don't get it.

There would be no expert as the gun would not be allowed to be offered as evidence. It would have to be removed.

It doesn't matter what the tampering, but the simple fact they touched it could have it thrown out.

Only because there is prescendent of experts saying that one person holding a gun can be capable of tampering with it, that is why those cases can be thrown out.

Merc have to prove why something that needs specific tools to set up can be altered by Max in 1 second of touch (if he did touch at all)

You need to read up on the "chain of custody" for evidence in criminal cases. And just in case it's been distorted in a TV Crime show at some point, I mean in real life.

It the chain of custody for a piece of evidence is broken, that evidence becomes inadmissible. It's a binary thing, no way back. Entire murder trials have failed on such technicalities.

if a police officer, security officer, or whoever discovers criminal evidence against you - perhaps an unlicensed gun or to be extreme, a nuclear bomb in your shopping cart,
but he failed to ask permission to search your shopping cart or for example your jacket, bag, whatever it was in,
then it doesn't matter you have a nuke with you. you CAN NOT be prosecuted anymore because the FIRST thing the attorney will discover in a trial is that the evidence will be obtained WITHOUT the consent of the person carrying it at the time.

Mercedes did not give permission for Max to touch the car, and Max has contaminated the evidence.

whatever the case, there is no case.

[Nicktec]

FP2 will start in 20 minutes. It will be interesting to see if everybody got his car back

#44 had his rear wing confiscated by the FIA. He can drive with another wing

[AeroDynamic]

Thats actually a good point. With the footage we saw yesterday with the RB Wing flip-flapping around, the 85mm limit is obviously changing when live in use on track. Perhaps the MCS is doing the same, depending on how max touched it, maybe it upset how the wing behaves under a test scenario? not saying the wing is broken though. Thats impossible but mm's are fine margins; if its genuinely the case, the wing is too sensitive, otherwise its a lie MCS are hoping to cover a oversensitive wing that failed to pass after use as intended.

[Pany]

Fia already compromised credibility is today totally under risk. F1 supporters will remember what they decide for long time. Mind the gap....