Mercedes W12

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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dans79
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Owen.C93 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:49 pm
I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I'm just showing the gap when stood still and when at speed to try and figure out what RBR are referring to.
we are getting more into a topic area that should be in the team thread vs the car thread. but if you are talking about The tami tweet saying the main plane flexes down, I personally think that's tin foil hat territory. If you want to stall the rear wing, you want the slot to narrow, not open. Teams did exactly this in 05/06, and is why slot gap separators were introduced.
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holeindalip
holeindalip
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Re: Mercedes W12

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I’m just not seeing it in the pics provided. I don’t see how the main plane can bend/flex when a screw goes through the end plate and attaches right where the supposed scuffs/score marks. If the screws weren’t there then it would fail the 85mm slot gap 10n test which is what happened. The screws came loose…

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RZS10
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Would something like this even be feasible from a carbon/material standpoint?
Image

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes W12

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm
Would something like this even be feasible from a carbon/material standpoint?
https://i.imgur.com/mVFwkFC.gif
No, not unless you had 2 discrete layups with some kind of flexible hinging element bridging them!
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JordanMugen
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Re: Mercedes W12

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:02 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm
Would something like this even be feasible from a carbon/material standpoint?
https://i.imgur.com/mVFwkFC.gif
No, not unless you had 2 discrete layups with some kind of flexible hinging element bridging them!
If it is designed to do that, that is certainly a moveable aerodynamic device.

Anyway Newey may as well lodge the protest and see if there is anything in the theory or not, he has been around racecars long enough to know what you might want to do or not want to do. :)

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes W12

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:03 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:02 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm
Would something like this even be feasible from a carbon/material standpoint?
https://i.imgur.com/mVFwkFC.gif
No, not unless you had 2 discrete layups with some kind of flexible hinging element bridging them!
If it is designed to do that, that is certainly a moveable aerodynamic device.
Of course, but it would be so blatantly obvious, anyone who knows anything about composites would be able to see it from a mile way!
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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes W12

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm
Would something like this even be feasible from a carbon/material standpoint?
https://i.imgur.com/mVFwkFC.gif
I don't think it will possible to make some thing in carbon fibre to bend like that AND pass the new FIA load test.

Why haven't redbull protested yet if that's the case. I say they are just throwing everything on the wall and hoping some to stick.

Initially they were questioning plenum sensor placement and then suspension and now the rear wing.

Redbull are just trying to destabilise or hoping to destabilise merc

TimW
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Owen.C93 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:49 pm
I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I'm just showing the gap when stood still and when at speed to try and figure out what RBR are referring to.

Here's 2 decently similar angles from high speed and stood still. Need to find something a bit sharper and a higher speed though.

https://i.imgur.com/xMV2mvR.png
https://i.imgur.com/cBNxw4h.png
The amount of daylight is very similar in both photos.

siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:11 pm
I don't think it will possible to make some thing in carbon fibre to bend like that AND pass the new FIA load test.
The FIA load test does not load the lower element, so local flexibility here would not be detected.

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes W12

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TimW wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:19 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:11 pm
I don't think it will possible to make some thing in carbon fibre to bend like that AND pass the new FIA load test.
The FIA load test does not load the lower element, so local flexibility here would not be detected.
Then which part do they test? The upper DRS flap can't be tested as it's a movable part. Honestly I am confused. Any source or fia test analysis will be helpful

TimW
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Re: Mercedes W12

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siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:22 pm
TimW wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:19 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:11 pm
I don't think it will possible to make some thing in carbon fibre to bend like that AND pass the new FIA load test.
The FIA load test does not load the lower element, so local flexibility here would not be detected.
Then which part do they test? The upper DRS flap can't be tested as it's a movable part. Honestly I am confused. Any source or fia test analysis will be helpful
As far as I know the load is still applied through the end plates.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-b ... 29890/amp/

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes W12

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TimW wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:39 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:22 pm
TimW wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:19 pm
The FIA load test does not load the lower element, so local flexibility here would not be detected.
Then which part do they test? The upper DRS flap can't be tested as it's a movable part. Honestly I am confused. Any source or fia test analysis will be helpful
As far as I know the load is still applied through the end plates.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-b ... 29890/amp/
They do pull back the flaps. Picture from above link
Image

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Sieper
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Indeed, they test the whole wing, as a unit. There are limits in that, redbull was passing these earlier in the season but it was still deemed (as you could see the whole unit move down on the rear facing camera) moveable aero. And it did indeed move. So the testlimits were made more strict and the camera reference stickers got introduced.

Now the main plane. It’s supposed to be secured. There are no tests nor limits. It cant be moving independently.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:06 pm
Now the main plane. It’s supposed to be secured. There are no tests nor limits. It cant be moving independently.
Could u give a source or link for that.
I couldn't find anything anywhere
Thank you

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Sieper
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Re: Mercedes W12

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siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:14 pm
Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:06 pm
Now the main plane. It’s supposed to be secured. There are no tests nor limits. It cant be moving independently.
Could u give a source or link for that.
I couldn't find anything anywhere
Thank you
What do you mean? The whole wing is supposed to be a rigid unit, you can’t have moveable aero. If the mainplane bends like the scratches and the images of the car under speed seem to show, than that is movable aero. There is no limit or margin for that.

Do you dispute the wing should be a solid unit (excluding the DRS flap movement allowance) or have I misunderstood?
Controversy does not have a short memory.

TimW
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Re: Mercedes W12

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siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:44 pm
TimW wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:39 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:22 pm

Then which part do they test? The upper DRS flap can't be tested as it's a movable part. Honestly I am confused. Any source or fia test analysis will be helpful
As far as I know the load is still applied through the end plates.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-b ... 29890/amp/
They do pull back the flaps. Picture from above link
https://cdn-3.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... test-1.jpg
Hmm, seems to me that the load is introduced through the frame(yellow) that is clamped around the end plates. But I now see the are also yellow elements on the upper flap. Nothing on the lower flap though.

Edit: the first image in the article only shows the frame clamped to the end plates. The text refers to the end plates, but is not unambiguous.