2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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jz11
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am
Looking back at qualifying, why did horner say "Lewis made ALL of his time in turns 6 and 7 " ?? Turns 6 and 7 are in the middle sector. When you look at the best sector times from Q3 it looked like this

Lewis S1-26.450 --- S2-26.922 --- S3-27.455
Max S1-26.554 --- S2-27.179 --- S3-27.681

So Lewis was faster in all 3 sectors, by S1-0.104 --- S2-0.257 --- S3-0.226

So why does Horner say this rubbish ?

https://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/ ... eblog-body
perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:50 pm
Are there any videos of the bendy wing bending? Or is it just that Red Bull say it bends?
It's literally just RB saying this. Ive seen nothing from other teams claiming it, no evidence of it and obviously, no protests either.
Felipe Baby!

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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jz11 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am
Looking back at qualifying, why did horner say "Lewis made ALL of his time in turns 6 and 7 " ?? Turns 6 and 7 are in the middle sector. When you look at the best sector times from Q3 it looked like this

Lewis S1-26.450 --- S2-26.922 --- S3-27.455
Max S1-26.554 --- S2-27.179 --- S3-27.681

So Lewis was faster in all 3 sectors, by S1-0.104 --- S2-0.257 --- S3-0.226

So why does Horner say this rubbish ?

https://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/ ... eblog-body
perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway
You do know that the sector times posted above are the best possible and fastest sectors of each driver ?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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jz11 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am
Looking back at qualifying, why did horner say "Lewis made ALL of his time in turns 6 and 7 " ?? Turns 6 and 7 are in the middle sector. When you look at the best sector times from Q3 it looked like this

Lewis S1-26.450 --- S2-26.922 --- S3-27.455
Max S1-26.554 --- S2-27.179 --- S3-27.681

So Lewis was faster in all 3 sectors, by S1-0.104 --- S2-0.257 --- S3-0.226

So why does Horner say this rubbish ?

https://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/ ... eblog-body
perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway
Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
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mzivtins
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:24 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:50 pm
Are there any videos of the bendy wing bending? Or is it just that Red Bull say it bends?
It's literally just RB saying this. Ive seen nothing from other teams claiming it, no evidence of it and obviously, no protests either.
Lets face it, if Sky dont have slow-mo shots of it flexing and returning in a 200mph heavy breaking zone, with full analysis and overlays, then it probably doesn't exist. Sky F1 would LOVE to find anything that fits their Max narrative...

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:02 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:57 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:47 pm


Do you? Or Horner? 🤔

How else did max damage his wing? We saw it with Pierre and the kerbs killed several tyres.
I did see the damage on his front left wing. There was a small chip on the front side. It was there very early in the race already. I personally think it happened right away when he had to make room for Alonso. There was a small moment when he came on track again.

Could also happen on the kerbs, for sure max was on there at least one time on the race (shown in the live feed) and with high rake the FW is closer to the ground so there is more danger.

But I am not the one selling the Lewis is smart and stays of the kerbs and that is the only reason dumb Max who took the risk lap after lap and only that way he could keep up without a shred of proof.
Sierper, there was no intention behind my comments to say Max was being dumb. Only that Max took powerful FL and Lewis’ hands may have been tied in the situation, as he was being risk adverse about the kerbs. Max’s damage suggests to me he was using more track to find the time, that’s all.

If you keep assuming everyone has an agenda, you will simply read into things that aren’t there. Like looking at ghosts :wink:

I don’t think his wing damaged from Alonso, I don’t think they made contact and I think only his rear right wheel went onto the Astroturf. I don’t recall sparks there? I also think max suggests it happened a few laps in, no? His pace was good in the first laps, I’m sure I remember his pace changing a bit after that.
Thanks for that, it is not a question of assuming so much then that there are a handfull of guys who really don’t do anything else. But thanks for coming back and taking the trouble to explain. This shows to me you are not one of those so I don’t need to be guarded when reading your replies.

Alonso and Max did not touch but he did make an evasive manoeuvre, one that was not very easy to make imho, he had to react super quick and came on the slippery stuff). I did not see sparks there either when he came back but cannot be sure he damaged the wing there already.

It did happen early on as I spotted the damage at the first pitstop. Didn’t seem like much, I just saw a paint chip. He did end up on the kerbs at least one time that I saw. And with high rake, yes, that is extra dangerous. There wasn’t much to win with hanging with Lewis.

Max his pace in all 3 stints was very consistent. Look how broad his laps with virtually the same laptime were:

https://f1bythenumbers.com/storage/2021 ... p_10-1.svg

Look at some other races as well, he always has these consistent laptimes.

Lewis f.e. After warming up his tires in lap 2 and 3 (lap 1 is the formation lap) also had slow lap 4 and 5. Whatever the reason. He was in free air. Maybe building the heat or maybe a small miss. Max still had traffic with Alonso and Gasly. Sure, no fights, but you do first have to line them up for the straight so that lap can cost a bit.

Point being, max’ pace was fine and consistent all race. No sudden drop off.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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mzivtins wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:24 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:50 pm
Are there any videos of the bendy wing bending? Or is it just that Red Bull say it bends?
It's literally just RB saying this. Ive seen nothing from other teams claiming it, no evidence of it and obviously, no protests either.
Lets face it, if Sky dont have slow-mo shots of it flexing and returning in a 200mph heavy breaking zone, with full analysis and overlays, then it probably doesn't exist. Sky F1 would LOVE to find anything that fits their Max narrative...
Sky pushing a Max narrative? On this very forum are pics of brasil.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 pm
jz11 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am
Looking back at qualifying, why did horner say "Lewis made ALL of his time in turns 6 and 7 " ?? Turns 6 and 7 are in the middle sector. When you look at the best sector times from Q3 it looked like this

Lewis S1-26.450 --- S2-26.922 --- S3-27.455
Max S1-26.554 --- S2-27.179 --- S3-27.681

So Lewis was faster in all 3 sectors, by S1-0.104 --- S2-0.257 --- S3-0.226

So why does Horner say this rubbish ?

https://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/ ... eblog-body
perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway
Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:56 pm
mzivtins wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:24 pm


It's literally just RB saying this. Ive seen nothing from other teams claiming it, no evidence of it and obviously, no protests either.
Lets face it, if Sky dont have slow-mo shots of it flexing and returning in a 200mph heavy breaking zone, with full analysis and overlays, then it probably doesn't exist. Sky F1 would LOVE to find anything that fits their Max narrative...
Sky pushing a Max narrative? On this very forum are pics of brasil.
The ones with different perspectives? I wouldn't call them conclusive in any way at all. Other than some speculative and questionable pics, we have zero evidence of anything happening.
Felipe Baby!

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 pm
jz11 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm


perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway
Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?

basti313
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 pm


Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?
No, it is part of the new rocket ship time.
We saw a really good F1 season with many errors of the top contenders and real fights. This was great. Last good example was the US GP with bottled Q3 runs.
Now we are back to Merc sandbagging it home, so no errors anymore.

So we can relax, call it a day and no more Max vs. Lewis yin yang necessary. We could really now enjoy the drama in F1.5, which was actually extremely good this race.
Unfortunately McL vs. Ferrari seems to be decided after the tire failure...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:44 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm


Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?
No, it is part of the new rocket ship time.
We saw a really good F1 season with many errors of the top contenders and real fights. This was great. Last good example was the US GP with bottled Q3 runs.
Now we are back to Merc sandbagging it home, so no errors anymore.

So we can relax, call it a day and no more Max vs. Lewis yin yang necessary. We could really now enjoy the drama in F1.5, which was actually extremely good this race.
Unfortunately McL vs. Ferrari seems to be decided after the tire failure...
The USA and Mexico Engine was used in Quatar and the same Silverstone chassis. Obviously the speed is not from the rocket engine or bendy wings.
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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 pm
jz11 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:06 am
Looking back at qualifying, why did horner say "Lewis made ALL of his time in turns 6 and 7 " ?? Turns 6 and 7 are in the middle sector. When you look at the best sector times from Q3 it looked like this

Lewis S1-26.450 --- S2-26.922 --- S3-27.455
Max S1-26.554 --- S2-27.179 --- S3-27.681

So Lewis was faster in all 3 sectors, by S1-0.104 --- S2-0.257 --- S3-0.226

So why does Horner say this rubbish ?

https://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/ ... eblog-body
perhaps it is because comparing ALL best sector times is not indicative of the best possible lap time, because you cherry pick, and by that I mean - that "ultimate" pace is not sustainable because the tires overheat and performance drops off in other sectors (or if you save everything for the best S3 time, you sacrifice too much in S1&S2), you can compare only all 3 sectors of one particular lap, not pick best sectors out of 10 or 100 laps and say that is the ultimate pace

so Horners point may have been that on the best possible lap Lewis gains much more in that particular sector compared to Maxes best possible lap, which to me makes all the sense, and the cherry picked best sector times mean very little, not with these tires anyway
Im not entirely sure about Max's lap, I would have to check, but Lewis' lap was all his final run in Q3. He went purple in all 3 sectors on that lap.
Here is the final best sectors form entire qualy
Image

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:44 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:00 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:58 pm


Which has been highly unlikely this year.
Last weekend isn't part of this year?
No, it is part of the new rocket ship time.
We saw a really good F1 season with many errors of the top contenders and real fights. This was great. Last good example was the US GP with bottled Q3 runs.
Now we are back to Merc sandbagging it home, so no errors anymore.

So we can relax, call it a day and no more Max vs. Lewis yin yang necessary. We could really now enjoy the drama in F1.5, which was actually extremely good this race.
Unfortunately McL vs. Ferrari seems to be decided after the tire failure...
Relax man! Anything can still happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if Merc were hiding all season and brought the updates right at the end of the season. Might have explained why we barely see any changes on the car the whole season. It was more of a regulized 2020 car for this season and the beginning. Do we actually know where Merc used their update tokens all season? I thought that was a mystery at the start.

It could be a way to keep the competition busy. If RB smell a possible Championship win this season, then they push as hard as possible to chase for that. If the differences between Max and Lewis are that small, then RB would need a final push to gain momentum.

Meanwhile Merc might already have all these upgrades on the PU side of things ready early on, but just waited till the right moment (like right at the end of the season when most teams would have already done all their updates and shift momentum to next season). It could also be a strategy to blindside RB in focussing more on this season than 2022.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:59 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:56 pm
mzivtins wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 pm


Lets face it, if Sky dont have slow-mo shots of it flexing and returning in a 200mph heavy breaking zone, with full analysis and overlays, then it probably doesn't exist. Sky F1 would LOVE to find anything that fits their Max narrative...
Sky pushing a Max narrative? On this very forum are pics of brasil.
The ones with different perspectives? I wouldn't call them conclusive in any way at all. Other than some speculative and questionable pics, we have zero evidence of anything happening.
I found that quite telling. The problem is that it is super hard to get 2 pictures under the exact same perspective/distance. Car standing still and car at 260kmh or so.

The lower wing will have just bend backwards according to the scratch pattern, will be just one cm or so more room for light to peep through.
Controversy does not have a short memory.