2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance scam for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:37 am
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:21 am
adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 am

If Max had been a bit more level headed in Silverstone, then he could have a much larger lead in the championship and maybe even be WDC already!! I hope that, behind closed doors, Horner and Helmut are pointing that out to him even if they continue their own narrative in public.
Perhaps, but still it has a sense of victim blaming. He could have prevented the outcome perhaps, but the onus was not on him.
He didn't have to turn in. Others didn't in the same situation at the same corner and none of them hit the wall either.

Whether he turned in deliberately to try to force Hamilton to back out of the move or just misjudged where Hamilton's car was, only Max knows. It was a big accident, no one denies that, but Horner and Marko's histrionics after the event were unnecessary showboating in an attempt to affect the stewards in my humble opinion.
"She didn't have to wear that short a skirt. Others didn't in the same situation and they ended up being fine"

It might be true, but that doesn't mean it was his fault (which some are implying), and by restraining you also send out a certain signal of subordinance. Sure, he could have avoided it, but he was in his full right to stand ground and has no blame in doing so.
Last edited by DChemTech on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:56 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:11 am
Revs84 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:35 am

Seems to me like this is being blown out of proportions now.

Sure, Horner would have been better off keeping his mouth shut, but when the stakes are so high, emotions run higher.

Don't forget that Red Bull haven't won a championship since 2013. So much time, money, energy and effort goes into this and then getting a penalty in such a manner.

No one is contesting whether Max should have stopped or not. The problem is that the way the yellow flag situation was handled was unacceptable. At least Horner admitted he was wrong. FIA didn't.

Let's also not pretend to forget the 'f them all' comment and gesture to Masi after Brazil by Wolff. These people are human too and make mistakes like us mere humans. Regardless of how poshy they pretend to be.

Ultimately if you really feel that what they did is so unacceptable, then why are you all doing the same to them?
I find things like his reply to Andrew Benson in that interview sickening. As Benson pointed out Horner called the incident in silverstone "reckless and amatuerish" when the car on the inside was level going in to the braking zone and didn't run wide. If this was reckless and amatuerish what was the move in Brazil ? When the car on the inside was a car length behind going in to the braking zone and run massively wide! Horner called it "Hard but Fair".
He then went on to say its different because "in Silverstone you have gravel and a wall". I guess he forgot the run off area ? and I guess he forgot in Brazil you have a run off area, gravel and a wall down at turn The problem I see is so many people believe him and assume what he says is fact. Sky never question him on it, I think Damon did start to push back but Horner wouldn't listen when then were discussing the Brazil incident recently.
you are blindly defending ham. leave making british racism and open your eyes. Ham was behind vers and hit his rear tyre at silverstone while vers was front of ham at brasil. that is why ham able to avoid crash.
Wrong. Verstappen was not ahead of Ham in the incident in Brazil. Lewis was ahead at the braking point, but Verstappen chose to brake late and thus not making the corner. It’s quite clear from all angles. Hamilton avoided a crash simply because he expected it to happen. Just as most other times they have been racing eachother.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I love how convinced so many are of Mercedes cheating. It benefits Red Bull hugely to make lots of noise about this for the media to run with. I think they just underperformed a bit in Brazil, and in Losail qualifying. The race pace in Brazil was fairly similar and in Losail too, just Hamilton had a tad pace in hand, and better tyre wear as well.

It appears that Mercedes have nailed the car setup finally, but also that Red Bull might be struggling a tad which is exacerbating the performances between them.
Felipe Baby!

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:29 pm
I love how convinced so many are of Mercedes cheating. It benefits Red Bull hugely to make lots of noise about this for the media to run with. I think they just underperformed a bit in Brazil, and in Losail qualifying. The race pace in Brazil was fairly similar and in Losail too, just Hamilton had a tad pace in hand, and better tyre wear as well.

It appears that Mercedes have nailed the car setup finally, but also that Red Bull might be struggling a tad which is exacerbating the performances between them.
That must be one hell of a nailing on car setup after 18 races to suddenly be able to pass on 1 single straight starting from nearly a second behind

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:34 pm
SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:29 pm
I love how convinced so many are of Mercedes cheating. It benefits Red Bull hugely to make lots of noise about this for the media to run with. I think they just underperformed a bit in Brazil, and in Losail qualifying. The race pace in Brazil was fairly similar and in Losail too, just Hamilton had a tad pace in hand, and better tyre wear as well.

It appears that Mercedes have nailed the car setup finally, but also that Red Bull might be struggling a tad which is exacerbating the performances between them.
That must be one hell of a nailing on car setup after 18 races to suddenly be able to pass on 1 single straight starting from nearly a second behind
Fresh engine vs non fresh engines. Mercedes clearly nailed setup and Lewis was regularly around 5-7 tenths behind coming out of the last corner. Did we watch a different race? It's easy to make a flippant comment like that, but there have been many overtakes that happened this year in a similar manner when a top 2 car is down the field making it's way through.

It helps to remember that DRS has a big effect in Brazil. I was very surprised by how slow Red Bull were on the straights, I know they wanted to make up time in S2, but I thought it would be better to be faster in S1 and S3 instead as it's very hard to overtake in S2.
Felipe Baby!

Raleigh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
Hamilton outqualified Max by nearly half a second and then controlled the race with pace in hand. With the older engine from Turkey. And then passed the new rear wing tests.

So yeah, Saudi Arabia with the Brazil 'rocket' engine back in the car...

If Lewis has to pass anyone in the race full shock and awe will be back.

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Raleigh wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:46 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
Hamilton outqualified Max by nearly half a second and then controlled the race with pace in hand. With the older engine from Turkey. And then passed the new rear wing tests.

So yeah, Saudi Arabia with the Brazil 'rocket' engine back in the car...

If Lewis has to pass anyone in the race full shock and awe will be back.
But no top speed advantage in Qatar, noticed it too..?
Unlikely that a low milage but frozen homologated engine with only different software alone will do all of that in SA, we'll see

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
I thought this was a technical forum! Please read up on what is actually happening than listening to gaslighting from Horner

See the quotes below from top speed analysis by Mark Hughes
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm
mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.


Now, let’s look at how each car compares with the rest of the field at the different venues.

Red Bull average advantage over best non-Mercedes up to Mexico: 0.655%
Red Bull advantage over best non-Mercedes Brazil: 0.596%
Red Bull advantage over best non-Mercedes Qatar: 0.443%
Red Bull average over best non-Mercedes Brazil/Qatar combined: 0.519%

Red Bull 0.136% slower on average last two races relative to non-Mercedes.

Mercedes average advantage over best non-Red Bull up to Mexico: 0.693%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Brazil: 1.24%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Qatar: 1.006%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Brazil/Qatar combined: 1.123%

Mercedes 0.43% faster on average last two races relative to non-Red Bull.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:24 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:18 pm


Wrong. Verstappen was not ahead of Ham in the incident in Brazil. Lewis was ahead at the braking point, but Verstappen chose to brake late and thus not making the corner. It’s quite clear from all angles. Hamilton avoided a crash simply because he expected it to happen. Just as most other times they have been racing eachother.
same blind aproach. vers brake late maybe too late but when they are still on track vers was slightly front of ham and ham could act according to car he could see. in silverstone max was front and haö was the man need to ease throttle.
by the way if you still insist to your blind dream at least you cannot deny he was inside and side of ham and ham was behind vers at silverstone and this also enough for my objection. cheaters just keep cheating.
If you brake unreasonably late, of course you will at some point be alongside someone. The question is when you start and if you make the corner or not. Hamilton had all the right to make the move into Copse since his car was around 90 % alongside Max into there. Whether Hamilton would make the corner or not is impossible to tell, since they tangled early. But he had the right to make a try because he was significantly alongside unlike what you say (plenty of footage of that too). In the corner complex before that, Hamilton was ahead on the outside, but didn’t turn into the apex because he knew Max would try a divebomb. That happened, and the reason they didn’t crash there was because of Lewis giving up the corner he had already won. Same in the first corner in Barcelona, and now in Brazil too. Max keeps getting away with being a ”hard racer” simply because other drivers let him off the hook, to save their own race. When they decide they will not be bullied anymore, crashes will happen. Monza is a good example of that.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
How about Mercedes were running more downforce. They were still faster than RedBull in the speed traps. In Qatar with no tow Merc were about 4kph faster, In brazil with no tow they were about 9kph faster. In Brazil Lewis had his new ICE In Qatar he had an older one. The ICE is easily a reason to gain 5kph or 3Mph.
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Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:56 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
I thought this was a technical forum! Please read up on what is actually happening than listening to gaslighting from Horner

See the quotes below from top speed analysis by Mark Hughes
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm
mstar wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:58 pm
IS this a different wing configuration which doesn't give the reduced drag? the straight line pace seems on-par with RB. I am a bit miffed if this is due to the high speed corners which they cannot use the wing and flex configuration at high speed.
Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:
In Brazil qualifying, Hamilton was sixth-fastest across the start/finish line, 7.7km/h faster than 20th-fastest Verstappen. The fastest was Yuki Tsunoda’s AlphaTauri, 4.1km/h faster than Hamilton. Tsunoda’s speed was flattered by a tow, but neither Hamilton nor Verstappen had tows on their best Interlagos laps, though obviously, both had use of DRS.

In the race, when they were each in clear air and with no DRS, Verstappen was usually at or around 300km/h over the start/finish, with Hamilton on or around 305km/h. The speed difference was not outrageous.

In Qatar Hamilton is 13th-fastest through the speed trap, 3.4km/h faster than 19th-fastest Verstappen. Fastest by far through the trap are the cars which lack downforce – the Haas and Alfas. The fastest of the Q3-level cars through the trap is the Ferrari, at 4km/h faster than Hamilton.

So, the gap between the speeds of the Mercedes and Red Bull has indeed reduced between Brazil and here – but only by 0.7km/h, hardly anything. But the trap figures only tell part of the story.

Comparing the speed profiles of the two cars throughout the straights gives a much fuller picture. Do this and in Brazil, Verstappen was losing 0.23s to the Mercedes on the straights throughout the lap (52.5% of the lap time deficit there).

In Qatar, he is losing 0.25s on the straights (54.9% of the deficit). So the lap time advantage derived from the Merc’s greater straightline has actually increased slightly in Qatar, albeit by no more variance than is typical circuit-to-circuit.


Now, let’s look at how each car compares with the rest of the field at the different venues.

Red Bull average advantage over best non-Mercedes up to Mexico: 0.655%
Red Bull advantage over best non-Mercedes Brazil: 0.596%
Red Bull advantage over best non-Mercedes Qatar: 0.443%
Red Bull average over best non-Mercedes Brazil/Qatar combined: 0.519%

Red Bull 0.136% slower on average last two races relative to non-Mercedes.

Mercedes average advantage over best non-Red Bull up to Mexico: 0.693%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Brazil: 1.24%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Qatar: 1.006%
Mercedes advantage over best non-Red Bull Brazil/Qatar combined: 1.123%

Mercedes 0.43% faster on average last two races relative to non-Red Bull.
Technical enough?:

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siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:56 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:56 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:02 pm
And gone was Ham insane top speed advantage in Qatar even though RB was running the Monaco barn door. If only the FIA would have told Merc after Brazil qualifying to replace the torque screws on the lower RW panel with fixation screws. We wouldn't have seen him coming theough the field like that in sprint and main race. 3rd in main race would have been the highest position he could have reached. Yes the engine is better and yes the car was improved but the stalling of the RW was key for all the overtakes. To hear Toto claim "it's against us, Lewis has experienced it all his life and now we do too" after the race was very misplaced. They were very very lucky to get away with that last chance for the WDC. Just my 2 cents..
I thought this was a technical forum! Please read up on what is actually happening than listening to gaslighting from Horner

See the quotes below from top speed analysis by Mark Hughes
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:04 pm


Same wing.

Mark Hughes destroys the RBR theories here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

Excerpt:

Technical enough?:
Not technical enough! :lol: '
That is light shadow

its been discussed here in the technical car section
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29672&start=1260

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:59 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:56 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:56 pm


I thought this was a technical forum! Please read up on what is actually happening than listening to gaslighting from Horner

See the quotes below from top speed analysis by Mark Hughes

Technical enough?:
Not technical enough! :lol: '
That is light shadow

its been discussed here in the technical car section
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29672&start=1260
Sure it is...