Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:47 pm


But you can bring fuel in a can then. When a 'letric cars stops, its really stopped.
Its a tow to a charger or expensive specialist help.
I suppose if you are really cheeky you could ask someone if you can plug in to their house for a while :mrgreen:
True, but a tow to a charger is far from a problem, at least if you pay road assistance wich is standard on almost any car issurance, isn´t it?

Anycase this is the same as with first smartphones... A mobile whose battery can´t last two days? No way, my nokia battery only need to be charged once a week, I´m never going to use a smartphone... :P
There is also the time spent at the charger, providing it is free when you arrive. I mean it is not the same mental calculation as running low on petrol and knowing it will be an inconvenience if you run out. There is probably a similar calculation of 'how much of the trip is down hill' too
Looks like the hydrogen refuelling experience is pretty poor. Very few filling stations, long waits to use the single pump and the nozzle freezing to the car. Oh and very expensive unless the car come with free fuel (Toyota need to provide $15k USD of free fuel, that’s just insane!).

I’d much rather a BEV and change up at home 98% of the year.

Last edited by djos on Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:24 pm
Billzilla wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:17 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:47 pm
But you can bring fuel in a can then. When a 'letric cars stops, its really stopped.
Its a tow to a charger or expensive specialist help.
FWIW here in Australia a lot of the car club service vehicles have a small generator now, for just such occasions.
And with a Tesla (at least) for every, say, 10 km you tow the car you get about 15 km more range thanks to the regen function. So not a lot of towing is needed.
Can you (in practical terms) recharge by towing?
I’ve seen it done

Jolle
Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:59 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am


True, but a tow to a charger is far from a problem, at least if you pay road assistance wich is standard on almost any car issurance, isn´t it?

Anycase this is the same as with first smartphones... A mobile whose battery can´t last two days? No way, my nokia battery only need to be charged once a week, I´m never going to use a smartphone... :P
There is also the time spent at the charger, providing it is free when you arrive. I mean it is not the same mental calculation as running low on petrol and knowing it will be an inconvenience if you run out. There is probably a similar calculation of 'how much of the trip is down hill' too
Looks like the hydrogen refuelling experience is pretty poor. Very few filling stations, long waits to use the single pump and the nozzle freezing to the car. Oh and very expensive unless the cat come with free fuel (Toyota need to provide $15k USD of free fuel, that’s just insane!).

I’d much rather a BEV and change up at home 98% of the year.

The industry clearly chose electric power and are investing in a good infrastructure. Don’t count on anything else

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:58 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:46 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:19 pm
A simple battery pack of a few KG is probably also enough. The electric equivalent of a 5l petrol can.
would that be a simple 600 Volt battery pack - or a simple 800 Volt battery pack ?
simply connected to the charging socket of the main battery pack ?

my original point was a wondering about the actual battery energy state when the system decides to shut down
(because the shutdown is driven by the battery life warranty not the battery energy state)

and .... towing isn't simple
A simple battery with a transformer. You hook it up, provides 230 volts to charge the car for a few miles.
These batteries are already available and I’ve used them quite often as a silent alternative instead of a generator.
The roadside assist vans just need to carry a decent size portable battery system with them, eg a couple of these would get an idiot out of trouble in no time:

https://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-de ... er-station
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 pm
The industry clearly chose electric power and are investing in a good infrastructure. Don’t count on anything else
Aside from Toyota who bet big on H2O and now looking pretty silly imo.

For interstate trucking, interstate passenger trains and freight trains I think H2O makes sense, but not much else.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:47 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:58 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:46 pm

would that be a simple 600 Volt battery pack - or a simple 800 Volt battery pack ?
simply connected to the charging socket of the main battery pack ?

my original point was a wondering about the actual battery energy state when the system decides to shut down
(because the shutdown is driven by the battery life warranty not the battery energy state)

and .... towing isn't simple
A simple battery with a transformer. You hook it up, provides 230 volts to charge the car for a few miles.
These batteries are already available and I’ve used them quite often as a silent alternative instead of a generator.
The roadside assist vans just need to carry a decent size portable battery system with them, eg a couple of these would get an idiot out of trouble in no time:

https://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-de ... er-station
Your link doesn’t work here for some reason, but I expect something more simple. Road side assistance will convert to EV power soon as well, they can just boost from their own battery

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:47 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:58 pm


A simple battery with a transformer. You hook it up, provides 230 volts to charge the car for a few miles.
These batteries are already available and I’ve used them quite often as a silent alternative instead of a generator.
The roadside assist vans just need to carry a decent size portable battery system with them, eg a couple of these would get an idiot out of trouble in no time:

https://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-de ... er-station
Your link doesn’t work here for some reason, but I expect something more simple. Road side assistance will convert to EV power soon as well, they can just boost from their own battery
That's odd, works for me (i took the "s" out of http to see if that helps:

http://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-del ... er-station


Good point, if they had a vehicle like the F150 Lightning it would be pretty easy to rescue folk.
Last edited by djos on Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:50 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 pm
The industry clearly chose electric power and are investing in a good infrastructure. Don’t count on anything else
Aside from Toyota who bet big on H2O and now looking pretty silly imo.

For interstate trucking, interstate passenger trains and freight trains I think H2O makes sense, but not much else.
In Europe and my guess Asia, trains are 99% electric. It’s just the US that is greatly lacking behind in public interstate/fast transportation.

As for trucks, could be, but it’s mainly a US problem (and again, their infrastructure is just, old?)

Jolle
Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:55 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:47 pm


The roadside assist vans just need to carry a decent size portable battery system with them, eg a couple of these would get an idiot out of trouble in no time:

https://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-de ... er-station
Your link doesn’t work here for some reason, but I expect something more simple. Road side assistance will convert to EV power soon as well, they can just boost from their own battery
That's odd, works for me:

http://ecoflow.com/products/ecoflow-del ... er-station
Aha yes, now it works here too.
I used a similar unit for PA amplification a few times during lockdown, amplifying a band on the back of a truck.

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:56 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:50 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 pm
The industry clearly chose electric power and are investing in a good infrastructure. Don’t count on anything else
Aside from Toyota who bet big on H2O and now looking pretty silly imo.

For interstate trucking, interstate passenger trains and freight trains I think H2O makes sense, but not much else.
In Europe and my guess Asia, trains are 99% electric. It’s just the US that is greatly lacking behind in public interstate/fast transportation.

As for trucks, could be, but it’s mainly a US problem (and again, their infrastructure is just, old?)
In Australia metro trains are electric but interstate passenger and freight trains are Diesel-electric due to the vast distances between cities. Going full electric is simply not economically viable.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:00 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:56 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:50 pm


Aside from Toyota who bet big on H2O and now looking pretty silly imo.

For interstate trucking, interstate passenger trains and freight trains I think H2O makes sense, but not much else.
In Europe and my guess Asia, trains are 99% electric. It’s just the US that is greatly lacking behind in public interstate/fast transportation.

As for trucks, could be, but it’s mainly a US problem (and again, their infrastructure is just, old?)
In Australia metro trains are electric but interstate passenger and freight trains are Diesel-electric due to the vast distances between cities. Going full electric is simply not economically viable.
I now wonder, is it? Or could it be that both the US and Australia, compared to the EU and Asia have a political/social climate where it’s less likely to invest in large projects like public transport on a national level?

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:07 am
djos wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:00 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:56 pm


In Europe and my guess Asia, trains are 99% electric. It’s just the US that is greatly lacking behind in public interstate/fast transportation.

As for trucks, could be, but it’s mainly a US problem (and again, their infrastructure is just, old?)
In Australia metro trains are electric but interstate passenger and freight trains are Diesel-electric due to the vast distances between cities. Going full electric is simply not economically viable.
I now wonder, is it? Or could it be that both the US and Australia, compared to the EU and Asia have a political/social climate where it’s less likely to invest in large projects like public transport on a national level?
Australia has a landmass of 7,692,024 km2 and 2.66 people per sq/km, Europe has a landmass of 10,180,000 km2 and 34 people sq/km.

It simply isnt feasible to electrify 10's of thousands of km's of rail line in the middle of nowhere.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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That would be a fair bit of drag on the tow vehicle. (No extra mass but about 3x the normal parasitic load)
je suis charlie

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:40 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:47 pm


But you can bring fuel in a can then. When a 'letric cars stops, its really stopped.
Its a tow to a charger or expensive specialist help.
I suppose if you are really cheeky you could ask someone if you can plug in to their house for a while :mrgreen:
True, but a tow to a charger is far from a problem, at least if you pay road assistance wich is standard on almost any car issurance, isn´t it?

Anycase this is the same as with first smartphones... A mobile whose battery can´t last two days? No way, my nokia battery only need to be charged once a week, I´m never going to use a smartphone... :P
There is also the time spent at the charger, providing it is free when you arrive. I mean it is not the same mental calculation as running low on petrol and knowing it will be an inconvenience if you run out. There is probably a similar calculation of 'how much of the trip is down hill' too
Someone may say you´re in a search of problems about EVs... :roll:

If you run out of battery, you need to call the assistance, same as if you run out of fuel. You´ll need some more minutes to recharge the battery a bit before continuing, but last time I run out of fuel, I did wait around 50minutes for the tow. 5-10 more minutes recharging to be able to reach my destiny would have made no difference at all

My bike do not have a warning light when the tank is almost empty, wich is absurd #-o

Billzilla
Billzilla
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:24 pm

Can you (in practical terms) recharge by towing?

Yep.