Replace the safety car

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JordanMugen
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:32 pm
The safety car worked fine when Charlie was in charge
Charlie took too many risks, for example using double yellows for marshals-on-track which is dangerous and unacceptable.

El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:42 pm
Last season red flags and safety cars started getting used far more often in races and dare I say it 'strategically' to bunch up or reset races at certain points.
No. Whenever marshals need to go on track, the VSC or SC should be used, whenever many cars need to be recovered or barriers need to be repaired, then the reg flag needs to be used.

It is the sensible approach as used in Australian racing, where Masi is from. Whiting took WAY too many risks. It is was reckless and dangerous.

In Australia, we have been always using safety cars wherever necessary for a very long time, e.g., EVERY time there is a car stopped on track and marshals need to go out to wheel it back, the safety car must be used without exception. The old F1 approach of trying to avoid safety cars and use double-yellows instead despite marshals being on track is both dangerous and wrong.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Maybe the cars could be released from the SC at the same intervals as when the SC was called.

That way it doesn't destroy the hard work someone has done to build a gap.

Out lane closed except for repairing damage, but minimum stop time of 10 seconds.
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adrianjordan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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It occurs to me that there is, in a way, a simple ammendment to the current rules that would make things a little fairer and also offer "the show" that Liberty et al crave.

If the Safety Car is on track, or called, within the last 5 laps of the race, then the race is red flagged, all cars return to pits and can change tyres.

If the stoppage is going to take more than a set amount of time - 30 minutes for example - then the race does not restart.

When the race does restart then you have a 5 lap sprint to the finish, but everyone has the opportunity to be on the best tyres they have available.

It's not perfect, but it would be better than what happened on Sunday.
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jz11
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Re: Replace the safety car

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if you remove the SC, you can go ahead and remove standing starts also - much drama involved with those, and considering the danger of humans piloting the cars, do it via radio and hand drivers some playstation remotes, FIA - for safety!

SC periods, SC restarts are part of the sport, for some it will be an advantage, for some - disadvantage, especially when they stick to rigid and safe strategies, VSC in my opinion already took a lot away from a sport, and its safety is quite dubious, when drivers need to constantly look at the wheel to make sure they are not under/over instead of looking at the track

luck has always been part of highly technical sports, and there is a skill in predicting and handling it most efficiently

and, as soon as I saw the thread, it was immediately clear which way this is going to go and who will upvote whos opinion, in other words - this, in current circumstances, isn't worth discussing, too much emotion still after what happened, but still - VSC would be the first thing I'd do away with, not the SC, clear the rules up in regards as how the unlapping is taken care of and when, and when to red flag it and restart, for instance - accident in last 10-15% of race distance necessitating marshals on track - SC situation = undisputable red flag and thats it

making them respect white lines and fixing running others out of road on exits would be the 2 major priorities, not the SC or VSC, yeah, forgot - race director having one way comms with teams

MattWellsyWells
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Re: Replace the safety car

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I have limited experience as a track marshal and I'm in favour of keeping the safety car. When trackside and dealing with an incident, it is pretty nerve wracking when the cars come past even at safety car speeds. Knowing that the cars will all come past at once behind the safety car and then having 2-3 mins of peace and quiet to deal with the incident is far preferable than having cars continually and sporadically coming past all the time as is the case with VSC and Slow Zones. When marshals are dealing with something I think we can all agree it is better to have fewer distractions.

I think the safety car is fine as long as procedures are kept consistent. There will always be an element of fortune going one way or the other for some of the drivers. Sunday was an extreme example with incredibly borderline timing as to which way fortune would fall, exacerbated by the bending of some procedures.

I do feel like safety cars create the same level of drama in times gone by than in more recent years so maybe there is a different factor at work here, such as, the extreme significance of tyres and tyre life there is at the moment. Maybe it's just because this season has been really really close and almost every race has been really close whereas that was a bit more rare in past seasons.

I was gonna suggest maybe there have been more safety car periods recently than in previous season but it seems about the same as normal. Although since the start of 2020, there have been 11 red flags during races and there was only 13 in the previous 10 years!

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Re: Replace the safety car

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:27 pm
and, as soon as I saw the thread, it was immediately clear which way this is going to go and who will upvote whos opinion, in other words - this, in current circumstances, isn't worth discussing, too much emotion still after what happened, but still - VSC would be the first thing I'd do away with, not the SC, clear the rules up in regards as how the unlapping is taken care of and when, and when to red flag it and restart, for instance - accident in last 10-15% of race distance necessitating marshals on track - SC situation = undisputable red flag and thats it

making them respect white lines and fixing running others out of road on exits would be the 2 major priorities, not the SC or VSC, yeah, forgot - race director having one way comms with teams
I think you nailed it, there just needs to be clarification of the rules for the SC, unlapping, red flag situations etc.
I really don't think there is any issues with the SC rules, but it is used inconsistently and that is what bugs me. Same thing with track limits, how hard can it be to just decide that the white line is the track limit? In every corner at every track the cars need to stay within the lines.
Much of the debates after races are because of these unclear use of the rules, you never know what is allowed and what isn't. Sorry for the OT.

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Re: Replace the safety car

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:27 pm
Maybe the cars could be released from the SC at the same intervals as when the SC was called.

That way it doesn't destroy the hard work someone has done to build a gap.

Out lane closed except for repairing damage, but minimum stop time of 10 seconds.
I like this idea. One of the things that's always been unfair about the safety car is that hard work is just erased. Yes, most drivers benefit from it at times so it probably evens out, but there is the feeling that sometimes a SC is used precisely because it resets the race. At least the VSC preserves the hard work to a much greater extent.
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Replace the safety car

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That sounds rather easy to implement as well. SC comes in but VSC stays 'out' giving the drivers one lap to restore the gap to the one in front to what it was before the SC was called.
This might be difficult with large gaps >20s or so, you might want to put a limit there

BlueCheetah66
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Re: Replace the safety car

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:27 pm
Maybe the cars could be released from the SC at the same intervals as when the SC was called.

That way it doesn't destroy the hard work someone has done to build a gap.

Out lane closed except for repairing damage, but minimum stop time of 10 seconds.
Would be too messy and would take a long time for all cars to filter back into their intervals.

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pob
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Re: Replace the safety car

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They could completely remove the randomness of the safety car and red flags:
  • A major incident happens that requires more than just a VSC...
  • signal the VSC for one minisector to get the delta times, and then throw the red flag and cars return to the pitlane
  • no work is allowed on cars except the basics of cooling
  • when the incident is cleared, cars are released from the pitlane by a signal to their dash and/or by a marshal using their approximate original interval times
  • any car that was already in the pitlane at the time the red flag was thrown can be worked on, but that time will be factored in to when they are released
  • work on any car that was not in the pitlane at the time of the red flag but has damage or wishes to change their tyres can only occur once that driver has received their "go" signal + a penalty equivalent to the estimated time normally lost in the pitlane
  • take a warmup lap at vsc speed, delta times can be fine tuned at this point to restore the exact old gaps
  • go green on the following lap at the point where the leader was when the VSC was originally signalled
Positives to this: gaps are maintained; incidents can be cleared away faster with marshals not having to worry about the snake coming by; cars are less likely to be damaged by debris; more racing laps
Negatives: less exposure for the safety car sponsors; less "entertainment"; fewer freak results

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Stu
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Re: Replace the safety car

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That works, sort of. When to release lapped cars would be an issue (you couldn’t allow cars to sit in their pit box without an FIA/steward to monitor (they can’t be trusted to self-police 😱), they also cannot fit both team cars in their pit box (one per team). Nice idea though. No more safety-car.
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adrianjordan
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Re: Replace the safety car

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:00 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:27 pm
Maybe the cars could be released from the SC at the same intervals as when the SC was called.

That way it doesn't destroy the hard work someone has done to build a gap.

Out lane closed except for repairing damage, but minimum stop time of 10 seconds.
Would be too messy and would take a long time for all cars to filter back into their intervals.
Wouldn't take that long. Most laps are between 60 and 90 seconds. All you do is say that lapped cars will all be released together once all cars on the lead lap have been released or something like that.
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pob
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Stu wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:54 am
That works, sort of. When to release lapped cars would be an issue (you couldn’t allow cars to sit in their pit box without an FIA/steward to monitor (they can’t be trusted to self-police 😱), they also cannot fit both team cars in their pit box (one per team). Nice idea though. No more safety-car.
Lapped cars would keep their place relative to others, no time/laps gained or lost.
The leader doesn't need to be the first one released from the pits: you can do it based on whatever order they happen to return after the red flag.

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Phil
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Re: Replace the safety car

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I like the safety car. Contrary to what happened in Abu Dhabi, I really don't think much is wrong with F1. What is wrong is that people seem to think there needs to be change because it could be more entertaining or because on that one instance, their driver lost out.

The safety car usually least benefits the driver leading the race. Statistically, he will be hurt the most by it, because it nullifies the advantage he has built up over the course of a race. But the safety car is a necessary evil when a safety issue is present.

There are also good upsides to a safety car - it brings some excitement into races (where typically there would be none) in a non-artificial way. It can also be accounted for by strategy to limit the damage an untimely safety car can do.

Motorsport is inherently boring. The format is that the quickest car (usually) starts on pole and by definition will typically finish in front as well. It isn't designed for close racing. All rules like red-flags and standing starts are there to add artificial spectacle. A safety car is the least evil there is - it's sole purpose isn't artificial and it's there for safety issues. It can shuffle the order upside down which brings in some added excitement where there would otherwise be none.

I'd rather keep the safety car as it is then all the other nonsense with red-flags and standing restarts or sprint races etc.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Replace the safety car

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Phil wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:46 pm
I like the safety car. Contrary to what happened in Abu Dhabi, I really don't think much is wrong with F1. What is wrong is that people seem to think there needs to be change because it could be more entertaining or because on that one instance, their driver lost out.

The safety car usually least benefits the driver leading the race. Statistically, he will be hurt the most by it, because it nullifies the advantage he has built up over the course of a race. But the safety car is a necessary evil when a safety issue is present.

There are also good upsides to a safety car - it brings some excitement into races (where typically there would be none) in a non-artificial way. It can also be accounted for by strategy to limit the damage an untimely safety car can do.

Motorsport is inherently boring. The format is that the quickest car (usually) starts on pole and by definition will typically finish in front as well. It isn't designed for close racing. All rules like red-flags and standing starts are there to add artificial spectacle. A safety car is the least evil there is - it's sole purpose isn't artificial and it's there for safety issues. It can shuffle the order upside down which brings in some added excitement where there would otherwise be none.

I'd rather keep the safety car as it is then all the other nonsense with red-flags and standing restarts or sprint races etc.
I largely agree. It's frustrating sometimes when it happens but was never really ever a problem at all for several years. The only issue I'd have is that it and red flags have both been used somewhat strategically or disingenuously in the last few seasons, and the race director whoever it may be next season needs to really think about appropriate use.

And to add, all the rules surrounding the SC were, and had always been crystal clear and universally understood until Sunday when Masi decided he could dispense with them and come up with some new ones to promote 'entertainment' over sporting intergrity.