Mercedes W12

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes W12

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cplchanb wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:07 am
De Jokke wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:57 pm
Huh, is that allowed, not spending tokens and saving them up for 2022.
So they have 4 tokens then for 2022?
I guess I should clarify... they spent little on 2021 development including tokens so they could maximise development for 2022. Tokens not included

I wonder what the abortted nose couldve looked like. Any insider speculation?
Not an insider but from one of the tech videos they did with James Allison where he explained they try and make the nose as small and neutral as possible, I wonder if they were making it even smaller?
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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W12

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holeindalip wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:33 am
While true on the aero platform they had unrestricted time designing anything else like the suspension
I’m not certain that is true, but anyway suspension design is lead by aerodynamic platform performance, so it would be fairly pointless to go too far with any design work. The only really effective design/application work that they would be able to do would be on damping and trying to replicate the current 6 (maybe 8) damper systems into a 4 damper system to comply with the incoming rules.
Platform control will be key to 2022 car performance.
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holeindalip
holeindalip
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Stu wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:39 am
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:33 am
While true on the aero platform they had unrestricted time designing anything else like the suspension
I’m not certain that is true, but anyway suspension design is lead by aerodynamic platform performance, so it would be fairly pointless to go too far with any design work. The only really effective design/application work that they would be able to do would be on damping and trying to replicate the current 6 (maybe 8) damper systems into a 4 damper system to comply with the incoming rules.
Platform control will be key to 2022 car performance.
I meant inboard suspension since going to “18 wheels, outboard is aero like you said but everything else non aero could be worked on

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De Jokke
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Re: Mercedes W12

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It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

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SparkyAMG
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Re: Mercedes W12

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De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
It's probably more along the lines of they thought they didn't need to, and to be fair, the W11 was so far ahead that it was a reasonable assumption.

I'd love to know what they spent the bulk of 2020 doing though, because aside from engine/cooling/lack of DAS there wasn't that much of a difference to the W11 and I don't think budget and/or development time can transfer between seasons.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Mercedes W12

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SparkyAMG wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:34 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
It's probably more along the lines of they thought they didn't need to, and to be fair, the W11 was so far ahead that it was a reasonable assumption.

I'd love to know what they spent the bulk of 2020 doing though, because aside from engine/cooling/lack of DAS there wasn't that much of a difference to the W11 and I don't think budget and/or development time can transfer between seasons.
And they were right. The W12 won the WCC, and would have won the WDC as well, aside from Masigate happening.

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes W12

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De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
I'd go with C, not used because they couldn't do anything meaningful with them to improve the car.
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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes W12

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:34 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
I'd go with C, not used because they couldn't do anything meaningful with them to improve the car.
Yeh, modifications will not work as stand alone items and if the rest of the car is working well enough why tie up development resources from the new car? And to be fair, if not for a backmarker crash 4 laps from the end, they would have got it spot on.

OK, they drifted off a little mid year, but recovered quite well, and Red Bull Honda probably surprised them a little and Max performances a little more
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De Jokke
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Thanks for the clarification.
So no advantage for 2022 then? More a setback in 2021 because they couldn't get it to work (nose) ? Couldn't they use it on another car item then or once chosen (nose) you cannot go back?

Still gutted about the Masigate, this man should be fired, he's totally incapable!!! :evil:
It should have been reversed (Lewis title and merc none as merc were total idiots during the SC periods!!!)
I hope w13 will trash the field!!!
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

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InsaneX_Badger
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Re: Mercedes W12

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De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:18 pm
Thanks for the clarification.
So no advantage for 2022 then? More a setback in 2021 because they couldn't get it to work (nose) ? Couldn't they use it on another car item then or once chosen (nose) you cannot go back?

Still gutted about the Masigate, this man should be fired, he's totally incapable!!! :evil:
It should have been reversed (Lewis title and merc none as merc were total idiots during the SC periods!!!)
I hope w13 will trash the field!!!
I don't expect Mercedes to be at the front next year. I doubt they sacrificed so much for 2021 and focus on 2022, especially going progressively behind in the first half of 2021. Expecting Ferrari to return to winning ways next season. They were very innovative in the new 2017 regs and could be the same for the 2022 regs.

Starkblood80
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Re: Mercedes W12

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InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:55 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:18 pm
Thanks for the clarification.
So no advantage for 2022 then? More a setback in 2021 because they couldn't get it to work (nose) ? Couldn't they use it on another car item then or once chosen (nose) you cannot go back?

Still gutted about the Masigate, this man should be fired, he's totally incapable!!! :evil:
It should have been reversed (Lewis title and merc none as merc were total idiots during the SC periods!!!)
I hope w13 will trash the field!!!
I don't expect Mercedes to be at the front next year. I doubt they sacrificed so much for 2021 and focus on 2022, especially going progressively behind in the first half of 2021. Expecting Ferrari to return to winning ways next season. They were very innovative in the new 2017 regs and could be the same for the 2022 regs.
I thought Mercedes pretty did minimal development of the 2021 car, unlike RB who were bringing upgrades up until the last race

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: Mercedes W12

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InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:55 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:18 pm
Thanks for the clarification.
So no advantage for 2022 then? More a setback in 2021 because they couldn't get it to work (nose) ? Couldn't they use it on another car item then or once chosen (nose) you cannot go back?

Still gutted about the Masigate, this man should be fired, he's totally incapable!!! :evil:
It should have been reversed (Lewis title and merc none as merc were total idiots during the SC periods!!!)
I hope w13 will trash the field!!!
I don't expect Mercedes to be at the front next year. I doubt they sacrificed so much for 2021 and focus on 2022, especially going progressively behind in the first half of 2021. Expecting Ferrari to return to winning ways next season. They were very innovative in the new 2017 regs and could be the same for the 2022 regs.
Mercedes should on paper have a bigger chance than Red Bull in 2022, given how early they stopped the W11 work during 2020 and the minimal effort to develop the W12 more than necessary. Red Bull played catch up during the whole 2020 season and made a much bigger push than Mercedes this season as well. Of course it’s possible that RB will find a better solution still, but looking at the past years, Mercedes have been more at the forefront on the chassis side than Red Bull when it comes to setting design trends.

scarbs
scarbs
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Re: Mercedes W12

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De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
The tokens were intended for a new nose, after problems with it, it wasn't introduced and the tokens remained unspent

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: Mercedes W12

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scarbs wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:03 am
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
The tokens were intended for a new nose, after problems with it, it wasn't introduced and the tokens remained unspent
Are there any details or speculation of what the new nose would have looked like or what they would try to achieve with it?

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De Jokke
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Starkblood80 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:39 pm
InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:55 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:18 pm
Thanks for the clarification.
So no advantage for 2022 then? More a setback in 2021 because they couldn't get it to work (nose) ? Couldn't they use it on another car item then or once chosen (nose) you cannot go back?

Still gutted about the Masigate, this man should be fired, he's totally incapable!!! :evil:
It should have been reversed (Lewis title and merc none as merc were total idiots during the SC periods!!!)
I hope w13 will trash the field!!!
I don't expect Mercedes to be at the front next year. I doubt they sacrificed so much for 2021 and focus on 2022, especially going progressively behind in the first half of 2021. Expecting Ferrari to return to winning ways next season. They were very innovative in the new 2017 regs and could be the same for the 2022 regs.
I thought Mercedes pretty did minimal development of the 2021 car, unlike RB who were bringing upgrades up until the last race
yeah me too
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!